i disagree. i don't think it's merely the presentation. i believe that the two are quite distinct. and most muslims i've met have called me a polytheist, so i know they believe it's quite distinct.
So there were two God's who just happened to have simultaneous Moses's Abrahams, Noahs, etc? There were two Virgin Marys who both happened to give birth to Jesus while still being virgins? And all of it took place in the same geographical locations for both sets of Dieties and their followers mentioned in the holy books? They are talking about the same.. As for calling you a polytheist, was that because you worship Jesus, the son, and God, the father? Even if that is the case it doesn't mean that your God the father isn't the same Allah that they are talking about. I believe that both religions are seperate. But they are still based around the same God, or Dieu, or Allah, or whatever language you wish to name him in. The different religions may believe different things to be true about that God, Dieu, Allah, but they are still talking about the same one. I too believe the religions are distinct, or I wouldn't be a Christian, I would be a Christmuslim or something.
The Koran was written well after the Old Testament (Torah)...it was written after the resurrection of Christ...like 300 years after. If I: 1. start a new religion today; 2. say i worship jesus christ; 3. but radically change the very essence and character of christ... are we still worshipping the same god? i'd say no... yes...polytheist because of the trinity. muslims believe in what's been termed the radical oneness of God...muhammed goes on and on in the Koran about how Christians are polytheistic
I've read an English translation of the Koran, and while I'm not a Muslim, and I'm a new testament guy, I don't see as many differences as I do similarities in the Koran and the Bible. It's still a God that is concerned with the down trodden, wisdom, charity, justice etc. Those concepts are the same.
major differences i see: 1. the essence of God 2. the deity of Christ; the resurrection 3. salvation through faith as opposed to works; islamic concepts of attaining spiritual perfection as contrasted with Christianity's original sin concept 4. the differences between Muhammed and Christ 5. the entire setup of the law and prophets as showcasing a need for a savior...ties in with #3 The Christian God and Allah are clearly most contrasted through their interpretation of who Jesus was. The charity/justice angle are a path to human righteousness in Islam...in Christianity, they are the fruits of a rigteousness that is not our own. The Koran is very clear that I speak blasphemy when I say Jesus Christ is Lord. It's very clear about that. And the Bible is very clear to the contrary. The Bible doesn't leave us with the "Jesus was a nice guy" answer. He either was who he says he was, or he was an incredible blasphemer, liar or lunatic. Now we can discount the Bible...we can say it's not reliable...not authoritative. But it doesn't leave open the possibility that he was just some neat guy...or one of many prophets.
Maybe the Bible's view of God is different from that of the Koran's view of God because of the incredible amount of editing by man of the Bible after the Crucifixation of Christ. It was cut, edited and changed to suit the needs for leaders. The Koran has not changed one bit since it was created.
so says you. not the first time i've heard that one Khan...nevertheless, the Bible remains the most reliable text we have. the New Testament documents have more manuscript authority than any 10 works of antiquity put together. we have close to 25,000 of manuscript copies of New Testament documents from before 300 AD. the number two book is not the Koran...it's the Illiad...with 643 copes. No documents are as well attested from a bibliographic point of view. These men you speak of witnessed an event...and then spent the rest of their lives sharing their testimony and suffering for it. They didn't aggrandize themselves...they didn't call themselves prophets...in fact, they were all made to look like fools from time to time in their own accounts.
The Koran has been changed to accomodate dialectical differences, so there are slight differences in different translations, and in most cases those changes are listed in the margins. While it is true that the Bible has changed due to translational differences and soem tinkering by monks during transcription, in most Bibles, there are also footnotes describing past words used and their meanings. For example Pslam 40 from the New International Version: 4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.[1] 5 Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare. 6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced [2], [3]; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. 7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come- it is written about me in the scroll. [4] 8 I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart." Footnotes 40:4 Or to falsehood 40:6 Hebrew; Septuagint but a body you have prepared for me (see also Symmachus and Theodotion) 40:6 Or opened 40:7 Or come / with the scroll written for me
i think we can agree that judaism, christianity, and islam promotes distinctly different paths to god. in the same way that catholics and protestants see different paths to christ. whatever the theological differences, the fact remains that they are from the same tradition, and worshipping the same entity, albeit in their own unique ways (as opposed to say, shinto, buddhism, taoism, hinduism, norse mythology, native american mythology, greek/roman mythology, etc. etc.). the general would have made more sense if he said that "Our path to God is better than theirs" or even simply "Christianity is better than Islam", but to claim that the Christian God is greater than Allah, is the same as saying the Protestant Jesus is greater than the Catholic Jesus? The only response to which is of course: ...
I didn't think so I was just curious because most references to God are usually "he" or "him" it's really unusual to hear "she" or "her". I guess that it is easier to say "he" than something like "Omnipresent super-being".
The Irony of Many stating it is a "Judeo"-Christian vs. Islam stance, is that Islam is the only other Religion besides Christianity that believe Jesus was sent by God. Islam believes in Jesus and he is revered in Islam. His birth is considered a miracle and Islam believes it is Jesus himself who will return as the messiah to fight the anti-christ. To say the 'God' of muslims is an idol is to say that the God of Christianity and Abraham and Moses is an idol. It is also to say the Mormons and the Church of LDS are idolators because they believe that another messenger came after Jesus* But honestly I don't even give a damn about one little story versus another about something that may or may not have happened one way or another out in a dessert a few thousand years ago. For these fools to be bringing religion into our secular government is a travesty. We admonish the democratically elected ruler of Iran when he has to bow to the will of the 'theocratic' elite, yet we allow people in high army positions to be this blatantly ignorant? If he believes it that is fine, but for him to act on it and use the United States of America to further some doomesday religous war is downright scary. *To the best of my recollection about the mormon faith.
"Public statements by a senior military official of an inflammatory, offensive nature that would denigrate another religion and which could be construed as bigotry may easily be exploited by enemies of the United States and contribute to an erosion of support within the Arab world and, perhaps, increased risk for members of the U.S. armed forces serving in Muslim nations," Warner and Levin wrote. Pentagon to Probe General's Islam Comments By Will Dunham WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon will launch an internal probe into speeches given at churches and prayer breakfasts by a senior military intelligence official in which he said Muslims worship an idol and not a "real God," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on Tuesday. Following Rumsfeld's announcement of an investigation into the propriety of statements made by Army Lt. Gen. William Boykin, Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Sen. John Warner, a Virginia Republican, urged that Boykin be reassigned, at least temporarily. Warner's office also released a copy of a letter he wrote to Rumsfeld on Friday, along with Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the top Democrat on the committee, urging the Pentagon inspector general's office to conduct a "thorough review of the facts" and make "a determination as to whether there had been any inappropriate behavior" by Boykin. Rumsfeld said he thought it was appropriate to have an investigation into the remarks by Boykin, an evangelical Christian who serves as deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence and war-fighting support. Rumsfeld said Boykin had requested an investigation. In a speech on the Senate floor, Warner said, "I think at this point in time, while we have young men and women patrolling the streets of Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas of the world that it is best that we try and take this matter, hopefully, off the front pages with the representation to the American public and others that the proper authorities are reviewing it." In their letter, Warner and Levin said "there are limits on the right of expression for service members." "Public statements by a senior military official of an inflammatory, offensive nature that would denigrate another religion and which could be construed as bigotry may easily be exploited by enemies of the United States and contribute to an erosion of support within the Arab world and, perhaps, increased risk for members of the U.S. armed forces serving in Muslim nations," Warner and Levin wrote. 'RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO' Rumsfeld offered few details of the probe, saying the Army inspector general's office may conduct it, followed by a review by the Defense Department's inspector general's office. He did not indicate if he believed Boykin had done anything wrong and did not criticize the general's remarks. "He has requested an inspector general review the matter. It seems to me that's a perfectly responsible thing for him to do, on his part. That is what is going to take place," Rumsfeld told a Pentagon briefing. Boykin's comments surfaced last week when NBC News broadcast videotapes of him giving speeches while wearing his Army uniform at various Christian functions. In one speech, Boykin referred to a Muslim fighter in Somalia who said U.S. forces would never catch him because Allah would protect him. "Well, you know what I knew, that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol," Boykin said. In his remarks, Boykin portrayed the U.S. war on terrorism as a clash with "Satan," saying Islamic radicals sought to destroy America "because we're a Christian nation." Several Democrats and some religious and civil rights groups have condemned his remarks. Boykin said in a statement on Friday he was "neither a zealot nor an extremist," was "not anti-Islam or any other religion," and offered a "sincere apology" to those offended by his remarks. Rumsfeld said he and President Bush do not see the war on terrorism as a war against Islam. Rumsfeld said he still is not sure what Boykin has said, saying that he had seen only one tape of "very poor quality."
But if it's the contrast of who Jesus was what about the Jewish take on him(aside from Jews for Jesus). They don't believe he was the messiah. Yet I don't think you are saying that the hebrew God is a different God. The Koran actually talks more about Jesus' early life than it does in the New Testament. The Muslims, contrary to the Jews, believe Jesus was born to a Virgin. It was miracle birth to Muslims just like Christians. I'm not sure why you say that the charity justice angle in Islam is a different path to human righteousness. I believe the Koran that the dictates of Charity and Justice are from God just like in the Bible. It's a dictate from God, just like in the Bible.
Franchise -- in Islam and many other religions, you earn God's grace...it's a process of doing good works. Christianity teaches that you're sanctified only through the righteousness of Christ...that He is the sacrifice because I can't earn my way to God. Out of that grace comes a response of love...a response to seek justice and charity. But those actions don't earn me sanctification...they're a product of it. Islam has the tenets that draw one closer to God...that make them approvable in the eyes of God. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Suggested readings....anything by Paul and then follow it up with the Book of James.
I've read the bible several times. Romans is my favorite book. I'm also a Christian and believe everything you've mentioned about Jesus. I certainly will continue to read and reread it it. The reason why I asked about the clarification on the charity and justice mentioned in Islam, is that according to the Koran it is the will of God. In the bible it is also the will of God. So in that remark I saw them as similar. I agree that the Koran doesn't teach that Jesus is the way, the thruth and the life, or they would be Christians and not Muslims. I can see where in that respect and in some others there are differences. But it's still not a total opposite, and while they view the son of God differently, to me, it's plain that the God is the same one. Again just because they don't believe Prince Charles is the son of Queen Elizabeth doesn't mean they are talking about a different Queen Elizabeth. I guess we just see it differently.
FB -- I understand your points entirely...and you make them very well. My ultimate point is the distinction about Christ and where that leads. That is the heart of the difference. A god that requires me to earn my way into salvation is one I could never please...one I could never satisfy. Grace through God's gift of Christ is my only hope.
