i dont understand these christian extremists, if you arent supposed to kill, especially not in in God's name, then why do they do it? its a pretty simple, non-interpretive rule, thou shalt not kill, how do they explain it all? if you are supposed to turn the other cheek and be meek, what does that say about those that go in there and shooting those that you don't like just because they don't like you back?
a. I don't understand what you are suggesting here, or how it responds to my point. I said that Jesus=God as part of my point, and you seem to be simply confirming this...do not comprehend. b. You really don't see the significant difference in the attitude of God in the two Testaments? In the former he helps slay anyone who is an enemy of his chosen people, lest they be conquered...in the latter, as they are already conquered, he advises turning the other cheek...Those are not legalistic interpretational diferences, but substantial ones.
excellent question...and Christians have struggled with this for centuries. there are many who would see your post as absolute truth...Quakers in particular believe completely in that. some of the faithful in the Old Testament were warriors...some who were credited with great faith by Jesus, Himself, were Roman centurions. but the translation for the Hebrew word is not "kill"...it's "murder". hope that helps...but like Chevy Chase in Vacation, "I'm not an ordained minister, honey, I'm doing the best I can."
Jesus stated that he was the Son of God, the the Father was in him, he was certainly not saying this about Allah. God states that thou shalt have none other than me. Anything or anyone held before God is considered an idol. If Allah is held in regards above God, then yes, Jesus would call Allah, or Buddha, or Vishnu, an idol.
Christians believe that there is one God. They also believe that the only way to come to know him is through recognizing and confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of God, that died to pay for the sins of the world. Belief in anything else above God is considered idol worship.
a. i'm not real bright. restate your point and let me see if i understand it. we may be speaking two entirely different languages, so i apologize for any miscommunication b. the old testament is about God's relationship with one people...the Israelites. that's it. there is a little talk in Isaiah of the Assyrian king saying that the Hebrew God was using his Assyrian army as an instrument of judgment...but for the most part it's the story of God and the people He's chosen to reveal Himself through. I think we ultimately water down Jesus way too much to make him this cozy, fluffy character He simply wasn't. He spoke more of Hell than Heaven...He was adamant about purity before the Lord...He actively affirmed the law and the prophets of the Old Testament...He said, "the wages of sin are death...." But the end of the story is God's grace...that even though we don't measure up, through Christ our sins are blotted out. That there's no amount of work we can do to make ourselves spotless before a Holy God...that the extension of the Cross is a bridge over the gulf between God and man. But I think the Old Testament, in large part, is merely a setup to show us how in need of a savior we truly are. To show that God isn't fuzzy and furry...that He just might have an edge...that He just might be serious about this holy purity business. And that we just might not measure up without His grace.
Muslims do not contend that Allah is above God...they contend that he and God are one and the same, and that Mohammed merely corrected misconceptions about God which had developed.
Ok now your just being a goof. Yes Jesus was a Jew. Bravo. He was born a man into a Jewish family and the Israelites were God's chosen people. Christ stated in the Great Commission to take the "Good News" to all the world, Jews and Gentiles. Jesus was not an idol worshipper because he believed in God and held nothing, not even his own life above it. If you have serious questions, we can continue this discussion. If you are going to use this forum to mock Christ, I have better things to do with my time.
I'm not mocking Christ, I'm mocking you. Following your logic, if the only way to know god is through jesus, then all jews are idol worshippers. Jesus was a jew, so he too would be one.
adeel - I would say there are absolute references to Jesus in prophecy in the Old Testament...at least part of which is made up of the Torah. Isaiah and Psalms in particular seem to point to Him. The suffering servant psalm which seems to almost completely describe death on a cross is one that comes to mind. Doesn't the Koran credit Jesus/Issa with many miracles and a virgin birth?
no...because Christians worship Jesus as part and parcel of the eternal Hebrew God. John 1:1-5 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it. the Word is Jesus...hope that helps
a. My point was that Jesus=God, God=unknowable, therefore Jesus=unknowable, beyond what he heas said. Therefore, when we are dealing with someone saying what Jesus would have said about Islam, on which he never commented, we are making suppositions which are counterthetical. b. I wasn't ever saying that Jesus was fuzzy...in fact, Satan, if you read the Bible, is an entirely New Testament concept. Historical records of the times show that the concept of Satan equating to the fallen angel, being the representative of evil etc. didn't even come up until well after thoe Old Testament was written, which is another inconsistency between the Old and New Testaments. But, despite your points about the purposes of each Testament, I don't think that there can be an easily discerned shift in Go'd position towards Judeo-Xeno relations, and where violence does, or does not, and should or should not enter into it. One last thing...do many Chrisitans know that it has now been archeologically substantiated that Yaweh was originally one of at least two Gods worshipped by the originally polytheistic desert nomads which became the Jews? Arch. subst. and fact are not one in the same, but there is a lot of support for this finding...
Jesus understood the signafigance of his life and knew that he was the Holy Father's only begotten son. Jesus stated that no one comes to the Father except through HIM. If you want me to say that modern day Jews cannot know the Father except through Jesus, that has already been stated. To state that Jesus was an idol worshiper because he was Jewish is just is a flawed arguement. Christianity is an off shoot of Jewish belief. Jesus fulfilled prophecy that Jews believed. He knew his role in the world. I don't really think that you believe that Jesus was an idol worshipper because he was Jewish or that anything I have stated here could be construed as stating as much.
interesting stuff, MacBeth....not sure that final point does much to shake my faith, though. archaelogists told us for years that certain Biblical events didn't happen...only to prove themselves wrong years later. ultimately, i'm saying there is judgment. i think both the new testament and the old testament affirm that. ummmm...Satan is flat out in Genesis...from the very beginning. the Temptor. the Snake in the Garden. I believe David references him in Psalms. Jesus finishes the Lord's Prayer not by saying "Deliver us from evil..." but "deliver us from the Evil One." the translation had a masculine connotation on "evil one."
