I think the whole situation is pretty sad. I hope this doesn't lead to nuclear war. Does anyone else think that this could lead to a global war? WWIII? There are US troops in Pakistan - if India attacks and kills US troops, then what happens? The US attacks India - what does China do? Could get very chaotic. I see some basis for the Isreal - Pakistan conflict, but this one is confusing. India and Pakistan are both fighting over land that is not vital. It just seems like one side doesn't want the other side to get the last word in. I know the US had a strong affiliation with Pakistan in the 1980's funneling weapons through Pakistan to the Afghani rebels. I think the US is fairly neutral to both sides right now. Pakistan is helping in the war on terror, but they are looking bad in the press with the terrorist attacks in India. I am American, born and raised in TX. Neutral to both sides. I hope things get resolved peacfully, where is the UN when you need them?
Never called Pakistani people dumb. 90% of my friends are Pakistanis. My girlfriend is Pakistani. I called the government stupid, not the people. Musharaff himself repeatedly says that he supports those "freedom fighters". I dont care if he supports them morally or militarily. The key word is "support". Pakistan "supports" terrorism. The British are the one that instigated the idea of separation. They were able to manipulate Jinah into thinking that Muslims would never be treated fairly in India. Jinnah fell for it and Gandhi basically had no choice. Gandhi was heartbroken, but went along with it for the sake of peace. Take a wild guess who started both wars? Not India, but Pakistan! I highly doubt this claim. Why the hell does Pakistan "care" if Kashmir is independent or not? Its not theirs to begin with. Of course we want Kashmir no matter what! Kashmir is ours and **** Paksitan if they try to get it! I never claimed all Pakistanis are terrorist. A small vocal minority do support terrorism though. That is completely stupid claim. I am a Muslim from India. I am damn proud of my birth country! I have many cousins in India and they are also proud to be Indians! Dont come up with bull**** claims unless you can back it up. That is completely offensive to me! Whats your point? Sunni Muslims and S-h-i-t-t-e Muslims still fight in Pakistan! Is Pakistan willing to create a separte country for the minority S-h-i-t-tes? I dont think so. Sometimes African Americans and Caucasions still fight in the US. **** happens. Thats an internal affair of us Indians and frankly none of Pakistans damn business. Our of a BILLION people, maybe a very minute minority are full of crap. I never admitted India was perfect. Not "many" of them hate each other. I had many friends in India who were Hindu. My parents had many many many Hindu friends. We did not base our friendship on religion. Of course when a few bad apples decide to be stupid they get alot of publicity. Please come with some facts and stop spreading false information. I speak first hand and I still converse with my cousin back in India. We get along fine and its none of Pakistans business when something does go wrong occasionally. These people are stupid, but they exist in every country. Soccer and cricket are international sports and have a history of violence. How do you explain the Pakistani mob burning down the house of their very own captain after their defeat to India in the last World Cup? People like these are going to riot no matter what. I also go to school with many Pakistanis and Indians. I have many friends that are Pakistanis, Indians, Jews, Christians, whatever. We also get along fine. The key is EDUCATION. I have talked to many Pakistanis and frankly they do not care if Kashmir is theirs or not. It is propaganda by the Pakistani government to keep the people from thinking about poverty, curroption and many other social problems. There is a small minority in Pakistan that is basically controlling the government. These extremists just wont let Musharaff attain peace. And I am also tired of Pakistan trying to start "dialouge" with Indian over and over and over and over. WTF is there to talk about? Leave our country the hell alone and we wont have a problem!
Really, do you believe that? It comes down to greed. I would give my opinion but I have an exam coming up on Sat to prepare for. But I will say that sometimes enemies that have been fighting for a such long time use religion as an excuse to keep the status quo. I believe the fight in the Middle East ultimately boils down to greed not religion. It is no different in this case.
Yeah ... read my second post, maybe it'll make it a little clearer. Also, if India has such a fair claim on Kashmir, why the constant struggles in the UN ... if its part of India fair and square, I don't see any problem ... do you? And about the Gujarat thing ... it was you who first mentioned there being more Muslims in India ... to make some point, so I just wanted to say that having more Muslims in India doesn't necessarily equate to anything. And the Muslim-Muslim violence ... no I can't explain it, and think its pretty damn stupid. Pointing something out in India doesn't mean I'm overlooking problems in Pakistan ... maybe you should re-read my posts where I said that Pakistan has a whole lotta problems that need to be resolved and that maybe the present government won't give into corruption like the previous ones ... And for the record, I'm no huge fan of either country ... I've lived in both countries for a few years each, and wouldn't do it again ... ever! And calm down dude ... you're almost ready to goto battle bigboymumu: Very well said ... I agree completely.
Actually, my statement about killing non-Muslims came from an interview with an ex-Taliban official in Pakistan just recently. I think you could factor greed into the equation. I don't disagree with that. They want everything their way and their willing to kill people in their way. If that isn't greed, then I don't know what is.
Good to know you got folks from Hyderabad.. You know what.. I could've been neighbors with your folks too . I lived in Banjara hills for 2 years and part of my family still lives there. Banjara Hills <b>still</b> is a Beautiful Place. There is rarely religious discrimination or anything close in that Area. It one of the posh and highly educated locations. I can't believe someone from Banjara Hills feeling that way. But then I dont know you. so I have to accept your words till I know for sure. May be your cousins faced with something that I dont know of. but I will definitely say this. There is very little **Religious** discrimination in India. But it is growing in last 5 - 10 yrs. The reasons: Political and increased meddling of ISI within the Indian territory. There is representation for Muslims in almost every day to day major aspect of life in India. They are in Politics, Business, Education, Entertainment, sports and everywhere. YOur uncle is MP(member of Parliament). one of the 500 people representing 1Billion people. I am sure he has the opppurtunity to voice any concerns regarding state of muslims. AIMIM holds a very strong position is Hyderabad politics. Muslims held key positions in almost all the fields(including CENTRAL CABINET in the called Hindu Govt.). They would certainly voice their opinions if there is any concern. Majority of the concerns you hear are from outside not within. I would still maintain that if Muslims are not doing well , Religion being the factor, would be less than likely. There have been some unfortunate incidents, but thats the way of life. There is no justification to those.. they are bad. All I am trying to say is Muslims are not being oppressed in India contrary to the opinion media often carries. Are you comparing the Life of Muslims when they ruled(Nizams) to Life of muslims now ? That is the main problem. World chose to believe Musharaff. India doesn't. India is well convinced that He is the Master mind behind Kargil. He is the brain behind all the infiltrations.. Its very unfortunate that things are getting beyond his control know. Just by taking American side doesn't change the facts. A army general with a Politician brain is very very dangerous and that's Gen. Musharaff. rockit, I was trying to focus on 'Muslims life in India'. I already talked about Gujarat in reply to clutchdream. there is nothing much to be said about it.. Its an Unfortunate incident.. Neutral International observers!!! you are kidding. why should India do that. So that Paksitan would claim a Moral victory? How can an outsider say something wrong happening's in my house and I should let third party stay in my house. Why should I even agree to that(unless I am forced to). Pakistan has no right to ask something outrageous like that. Its just another diversion and delaying tactic Pakistan is playing. There are enuff external diplomatic interferences already in this issue. No where in the world such thing happens. There are some protocols to be followed. The concluding lines from Ottomaton's link sum up the situation rockit, May be its our perceptions. I felt that article said more good than bad about the living conditions of Muslims in India
From an early post in this thread From the UN Resolution: <i> <b>1.</b>The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors: <b>A.</b> To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State; <b>B.</b> To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.......</i> I see no evidence of Pakistan doing anything in regards to securing the withdrawal of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals. Weapons and explosives are being brought into the Kashmir area from Pakistan which is contrary to your claim of Pakistani compliance. Early in the thread, you made fun of the terrorist infiltration problem that India has and then later in this thread you tell us that Pakistan is in compliance with the UN requirements in Resolution 47 (1948). Mango
I think that war is going to happen there. Hopefully it won't be nuclear, but if opportunity knocks, that will happen too. Regarding terrorists, if what is happening to Israel applies elsewhere, India's frustration about terrorism will fall on deaf ears. (Thanks UN. ) They won't have any other choice than to go all-out with Pakistan (maybe even China, who doesn't care for India much either).
Hey AB ... its actually nice talking to you I personally don't think its an outrageous thing to suggest at all. If India is saying X is happening and Pakistan says, no it isn't. Wouldn't it be best to have another neutral party go in and confirm one side or the other ... it is a mediation of sorts. And Pakistan has everyright to ask for it, it is its border as well. And how can Pakistan claim a victory? If it is uncovered that they are the culprits, that would really put them in a very awkward situation, first they suggested the mission because they were so sure, but then they are ones behind it all ... I see victory for India here. Musharraf ... I really like what he has done internally in the country, the alliance with the US was basically 'you don't side, you're next' kinda deal anyways ... he would have been the stupidest person to have said no to the US. From talking to family in Karachi, they are impressed with how things have gotten better since his taking office. Gen. Haq was also a military person but he couldn't do jack! We had the chance to have dinner with him when he was here in DC in February ... he seemed like a sincere person, so I dunno. I wasn't actually comparing life when the Nizam was in power ... it was obviously better. You had mentioned it when recapping the history of Hyderabad, that it used to have Muslim rule at one point (I don't know what the point was, but I thought I'd mention it too ) Ummm, Banjara Hills, I'm sure its still a beautiful place, I haven't been back in over 15 years, so don't know I didn't your reply to clutchdream until just now ... as I said to ROckets03, the point of that was just to say that having a majority there doesn't mean anything ... **** happens. Mango ... I didn't say that the terrorists are actually getting by, I was just saying that if the claim by India is true, then ... Nah, I seriously doubt there will be a war ... there is too much to lose for both sides. Pakistan will be forced to use some sort of massive attack, because man-to-man, they don't have a chance ... I can't claim to be an expert on the region, but these are all my opinions, and my take on things based on what I've heard and seen. Man, my mind is going all over the place ... I'm restraining to say somethings that might not be proper for here, so I sound very sketchy from point to point ... so it looks like a good place to end this on my part. AB, it was nice chatting with you on here ... thanks, and mostly for not getting too agitated
USA Today reports that "al-Qaeda and Taliban members are helping organize a terror campaign in Kashmir to foment conflict between India and Pakistan, U.S. intelligence officials and foreign diplomats say." http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/05/29/taliban-kashmir.htm "Senior Pakistani intelligence officials said today that recent terror attacks pointed to worrisome links between local extremists and fugitive Qaeda leaders who--far from being concentrated along the Afghan border as American officials contend--have filtered across the country into major cities." So sayeth the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/29/international/asia/29STAN.html Here's Stratfor's analysis of the conflict, they seem to believe that war is inevitable: http://www.stratfor.com/fib/topStory_view.php?ID=204614
Struggles are often mainstreamed for political, economic or any other power creating means. The Kashmir situation mirrors the Palestinian scenario in some ways as well. The primary obstacle to peace and resolve between Pakistan and India is this entrenched sense of ego and pride that would rather sacrifice a million lives than be proven wrong. As many aristocrats and politicians in those nations see people more like cattle that need to be controlled and at times sacrificed. Because of the lack of true democracy and due process, the dictatorial politicians become meglomaniacs controlling the people while filling their own pockets nicely. I truly don't think the Indian government, nor the Pakistani government really want this problem to go away. When there is a lack of an outside threat, the focus will resume to the internal country and both countries will be blasted by their people for the inefficient, corrupt systems that propogate struggles and equate the leader's as saviors rather than focus on the true driver of economic and political stability, and that is commerce, capitalism and a true system of checks and balances. For Pakistan, Musharraf and others use it as a source of nationalism and also a way to get the Extremists out of his hands and send them there so they only cause India problems and not just Pakistan. For all that Pakistan is doing wrong, India has much to blame in this situation as well. Kashmir is a Muslim dominated region that is ruled by minority hindu rulers in Kashmir. They feel they are not properly represented and are fighting for equal representation. If they recieve that and India truly becomes a democracy, than I feel that joining with Pakistan or creating its own state not an issue. No taxation without representation; now that doesn't sound like such a foreign concept does it?
What happened to our "chase them to the ends of the earth" policy? What in the heck is going on in Afghanistan if the terrorists have fled into Pakistan and Iran? Well Mr. Bush? Answer me!
Do any of you think that the tension between the two countries has been exacerbated by our approach to Bin Laden after 9/11? If I recall such a blowup was mentioned as a possible danger by some of the foes of our approach to dealing with Bin Laden. An article that suggests that our ever expanding war on terorism is at least partly responsible for this mess. War on Terrorism and Kashmir
Glynch- It may be possible. However, these two countries have been heading towards this for a while. It boils down to greed. Kahn- Very well written!
