Macb I have the same feelings. I always feel hypocritical when I respond to those threads. Although I prefer to look at it as sending out positive energy. It can't hurt. We can all use it! and yet you post on a BBS board... God's gonna save me from a bullet?
I would echo the sentiments of giddyup, bnb, bobrek, MadMax and others. I think you should feel free to make a gesture if you feel comfortable about doing it. I see it as a positive supporting thing, not a guilting obligation type thing. JV: That’s a very interesting position you take. As a Christian I wouldn’t say that a sincere prayer by a “salvation-challenged” person would not be helpful or heard by God. If God didn’t hear us in our “salvation-challenged” [SC] states he would never hear from any of us at all. There would be no link to a post-SC state. So if there is a God, and I believe there is, he’s hearin’ ya, SC or not. Also, I largely agree with your take on how prayer is understood, except that not having a prayer answered in the way you think you want it to at the time does not mean it got “screwed up”, IMO. In the “all things work for good” sense it means that there is another reason why what happened happened. I have found that almost invariably, in time, the reasons become apparent, and that they work for the good even though they may involve considerable pain along the way. The critics will say to this, “You just see what you want to see. You create in your mind scenarios that justify events.” But I don’t think that’s the case. I’ve been down this path as a SC person and as a post-SC person, and I can tell you with all sincerity that I believe there is something very real to it. It’s not just a tribal mythology to self opiate, or opiate the masses with (although there are doubtless some nominal Christians and Christian groups for whom this is the case). It is very much a reality in the world of post-conventional thought, within the post-conventional worldview. (Unlike Ken Wilber and other Buddhists, though, I believe it exists at all levels, not just the higher levels of consciousness. I would further say that higher levels of consciousness do not equate to higher levels of spirituality. I think spirituality and levels of consciousness are wholly independent things, but I think I’m heading off on a tangent here so I’ll leave it at that). I’m not suggesting that you should feel obliged to pray for someone, but I don’t think that praying, particularly praying for someone else, is really about your standing with God. I think it’s about your intent and sincerity in doing it, which doesn’t meant that it has to be a huge grand thing every time, just that it be well intended and sincere.
Erm.. that should be, “…praying, particularly praying for someone else, isn’t really about your standing with God.” I do miss edit. Check’s in the mail!
If it is somebody I know, I ask them not to say that to me. If I don't really know him/her very well, I just cringe to myself and try to change the subject.
Because you might be the recepient of that kind of support... and you can't say with any more or less certainty than anyone else that it would or would not be a benefit to you. Quick, everybody send up a prayer for rimbaud!
I would not go into a prayer thread because prayer has nothing to do with me (not to mention whatever event has happened), so I also would not start a thread asking for prayer or support because I don't believe in it and I don't seek it (again, not to mention that anything bad in my life has nothing to do wih anyone on this bbs). If unsolicited prayer is performed for me that also has nothing to do with me.
Even though I'm an athiest, I still have my own version of prayer. I call it "good vibes". I doubt they really work, but it can never hurt to have positive thoughts. Except when the Rockets are involved. They always end up letting me down. Bad vibes seem to work better with them!
Grizzled, don't pay that sentence too much attention. It was mostly a throw-away line in the first place. I think much of the issue you spoke to above is tied up with issues of election and choice, which is highly denominationally-divided. If you were to believe that men don't choose to be Christians but are wholly chosen by God (the position my church takes), then it is possible to make a very clear distinction between the damned and the elect, even before the elect become Christians. But, whatever; that isn't important here. If God is God, I'm sure he hears me; I'm not sure if he'll be accomodating. I don't think I'll quite fill the faith-of-a-mustard-seed requirement for moving mountains, in any case.
Wow. This really jumped out at me. If they don’t believe that there is any free will involved, then why do they believe Christ came? How do they deal with passages like Matthew 4:19, "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." If everybody who was going to bite has already bitten, and none of the others are ever going to chose to bite, what’s the point in fishing?
And, to keep this somewhat on topic, if they believe in predestination, what do they think the role of prayer is? Do they believe it relates only to this life and not the next?
Man, Talk about a self aggradizing thread. What is wrong with simply silence if you don't believe in prayers. Or, what is wrong with believing that THEY believe in prayers and participating for them. SHEESH !! DD
What Grizzled said (in his first post in this thread). Prayer is a big part of my life and I really and truly believe that it works. As others have said, JAG, it is about the sincereity in your heart. I would rather have someone say nothing at all than something that is not sincere or didn't come from their heart.
That is so funny. I usually don't click on the prayer threads either because I don't know the individual. That's just my personal choice, I have no real strong feelings either way. Plus, being a democrat, I was once told I can't be Christian.
On topic? It seemed to me that the conversation had run its course already. I think the position stems from other passages about God knowing you before you were even born and things like that. In my own opinion -- and I apologize for not being able to provide any Scripture, but i haven't given it much consideration for 2 or 3 years now -- it seems (or seemed to me 2 years ago when it was an issue) that the Bible leans more to election than free will. I wouldn't think passages like "follow me and I will make you fishers of men" is very problematic to the position really, especially when it uses an imperative form. Can you say the apostles chose to follow of their own free will and were not guided by some impulse from God? I think it is a mischaracterization to say that none others will choose to bite. Being elect is slightly different from being saved. If you are elect, you will at some point before death become a Christian. It doesn't mean you already are one. I might be elect and not even know it. I suppose the point of evangelism is to do the legwork of helping the elect realize the fullness of their election. It kind of sounds like busy-work to me, but most things do when you really emphasize the sovereignty of God. I'm not sounding too persuasive so far, it feels like to me. It isn't a new idea or something and there are people a lot smarter than me who've written about it. It is a pretty central tenant of the Westminster Confession of Faith which is 400 years old. As for prayer, are you understanding predestination to be that all of history is already decided? That's a somewhat different concept from the Doctrine of the Elect which deals only with the ultimate salvation and damnation of individuals. As far as I know, the PCA does not prescribe to predestination in a human-history sense. I'm not sure what problems it would cause for prayer anyway, though.
Hey, you can go a lot further left than that and be Christian, even in the US. (I used to think you couldn’t possibly be a Republican and be a Christian, btw. That’s how it looked to me as a Canadian looking at Republican Christians in the US anyway.) Some of the early Christians were communists in fact (Acts 4:32- ?). Do a search on Christian Socialism and Social Gospel and you’ll find lots of interesting links.
Try reading it again. Pay special attention to the part where I express a desire to offer support, but an ignorance of how to do so. And then skip to the part where I talk about hypocrisy.
Read Calvin's Institutes...there are a ton of passages in Paul's letters about God choosing him...that he would never have chosen God..that no one is able to call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit, etc. I think it's so immense we can't understand it...it's fun to talk about, but it's so infinite and my mind is too finite to wrap completely around it.
please, please, please, please, please dont disregard Jesus Christ because I'm a jackass who is often on the other side of the political aisle from you!! i know you put a smilie behind that last point....but i just want to make sure i make this point clear!
