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In This Thread Every Post Must Contain A Lockout Update

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by DallasThomas, Nov 1, 2011.

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itony Member

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can anyone tell me what will happen if the union decertifies? like pros and cons?

#61 itony, Nov 3, 2011

JayGoogle Member

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itony said: ↑

can anyone tell me what will happen if the union decertifies? like pros and cons?
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Well the owners did say that they will void all contracts. I think the Owners REALLY REALLY do not want to see that happen. Sure you have owners that are willing to lose a season (or so they say...) but we'll see. I think it's the only leverage the players can hope to gain at the bargaining table.

#62 JayGoogle, Nov 3, 2011
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ascaptjack said: ↑

Sorry, A_3P0, I love your optimism, but with this recent news coming out, I really can't see an NBA season happening.
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All that needs to happen is the union allowing the owners offer to come to a vote soon. But the union may block that from happening. Then at some point the owners will reduce their offer, which will officially kill the season.

I won't give up hope until the union decertifies (which ain't gonna happen) or the owners reduce their offer lower than 50/50.

#63 A_3PO, Nov 3, 2011
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itony said: ↑

can anyone tell me what will happen if the union decertifies? like pros and cons?
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Any and everyone who wants basketball this season loses.

#64 coachbadlee, Nov 3, 2011
itony Member

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coachbadlee said: ↑

Any and everyone who wants basketball this season loses.
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oh my...so no advantages

#65 itony, Nov 3, 2011
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http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/...oncessions-nba-players-best-deal-pro-athletes

NBA players have best deal

By Tom Penn
Special to ESPN.com
Archive

Yesterday a colleague of mine asked me, "What are the NBA players getting out of this deal?" He noted all the concessions that the union has made and pointed out that the owners haven't conceded much of anything other than backing away from their onerous initial demands.

My answer: Even with union givebacks, NBA players will still be the best paid, best taken care of athletes in their peer group (all professional athletes). The new proposed deal still makes a ton of dollars and sense for NBA players, especially compared to the deal that was recently accepted by their NFL brethren.

In August, when NFL players agreed to reduce their share of revenues from 50 percent to between 47 percent and 48.5 percent and to lower the per team salary cap from $128 million to $120.4 million, I thought they set a horrible precedent for NBA players. NFL business has been booming and virtually all teams have been making money; yet, NFL players were willing to take less. How could NBA players expect to earn a greater share of their league's money than NFL players at a time when most NBA teams are losing money and many are absolutely hemorrhaging cash annually? Yet the deal on the table for NBA players, whether a 50/50 or 52/48 split in revenues, remains appreciably better than the NFL players' deal by all measures.

Start with the fact that NBA players will maintain their entitlement to fully guaranteed contracts. About 90 percent of all NBA contracts are fully guaranteed for payment on the day that they are signed by the player. That player simply needs to show up for work and he'll get paid. He can lose his skill, be out of shape or for whatever reason perform poorly, yet his contract is secure. By comparison, only a small portion of NFL contracts are guaranteed at signing, mostly for the star players, and many of those long-term deals can be modified in the outer years, and players can be cut.

NBA players will continue to enjoy some of the highest minimum wages in sports. NFL players celebrated the fact that their minimum salaries increased 10 percent to 12 percent in the new CBA (NFL rookies now earn $375,000 this season and 10-plus-year veterans earn $910,000). NBA players have had it much better for years, and last season NBA rookies made $474,000 and 10-plus-year vets earned $1.352 million. By contrast, the MLB minimum in 2011 was $414,000. The NBA players' union also has apparently preserved the essence of the "mid-level" exception that allows any team over the cap to sign an average player to a multiyear deal starting at $5 million per season.

But the collective bargaining agreement is not all about money; there are other basic lifestyle and workplace factors that play into every negotiation. For example, NFL players made huge gains in this last CBA negotiation by reducing their offseason practice sessions by five weeks and limiting the number of full-contact practices to only 14 all season with one full-pads practice per week. Compare that to the NBA, where players already enjoy zero mandatory offseason workouts and only five total days of "two-a-day" practices during the entire season. The NBA players' association over the past decade has quietly put a huge fence around the number and types of practices that teams can conduct and thereby created a very favorable work schedule that requires no tweaking in this CBA. We haven't heard one complaint from the union on a workplace, non-financial, non-system issue because there isn't anything left for NBA teams to give players in this regard.

No matter how you analyze the deal on the table, NBA players maintain their place as the No. 1 paid and No. 1 taken care of athletes in all of professional sports. And they should be. They are the most recognizable faces and most "core to the product" of any pro sport. NBA players are the most gifted and spectacular athletes in all of pro sports, especially when you consider their unique size and physical stature.

These graceful giants deserve to be the highest paid athletes in the world. And by all measures, they still will be under the deal offered by owners.
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#66 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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jadande J.A. Adande
Players union decertifying in November = Spoelstra benching Mike Bibby in Game 6

#67 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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Haha, in other words, it's too late (to matter or do anything) J.A.?

#68 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
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Lockout is even affecting little kids. :grin:

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#69 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Last note before I go get, um, dinner: It's not truly clear whether player faction is aiming to overthrow union, or give it more leverage

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Both things are possible, but the faction cannot be seen as working in concert w/union. That would undermine them legally.

#70 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
J.R. Member

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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck

Both things are possible, but the faction cannot be seen as working in concert w/union. That would undermine them legally.
Click to expand...

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck

Last note before I go get, um, dinner: It's not truly clear whether player faction is aiming to overthrow union, or give it more leverage
Click to expand...

#71 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
ascaptjack Member

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KBergCBS Ken Berger
In a bizarre, blind-squirrel sort of way, this decertification hocus pocus could have a positive effect on talks. I'll explain.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
If owners/league finally realize the goal isn't unmitigated victory, but a deal, they will make the tradeoffs necessary to get deal done.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
But, decert threat could simply make each side dig in more. Strip Hunter of authority to negotiate and embolden owners to go for kill shot.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Behind curtain no. 3 is possibility that both sides just get paralyzed and don't know what to do. Result is absolute chaos.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Meanwhile, the hundreds of players who just want a reasonable deal so they can go back to work would have their careers hijacked. Fun!

KBergCBS Ken Berger
This all goes back to recent column about owners running up score and seeking blowout in this. Time to run the clock out, fellas.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
I don't blame those pushing decert out of frustration. Everything in this negotiation has gone owners' way. Pitching a shutout. But ...

KBergCBS Ken Berger
If 450 or so players given choice between A) ratifying 50-50 deal, and B) dissolving union and losing season, it's obvious who wins.

#72 ascaptjack, Nov 4, 2011
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KBergCBS Ken Berger
Bottom line: It's on Stern to rein in his owners and take a 95 percent victory. Any attempt at 100 percent will be 100 percent loss for all.

#73 ascaptjack, Nov 4, 2011

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STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
Sources briefed on Thursday's decertification conference call say most vocal "star" player was Paul Pierce ... with Dwayne Wade also on call

STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
Pierce's presence also felt on Tuesday's decertification conference call, sources say, along w/Celtics teammate Ray Allen and Dwight Howard

#74 ascaptjack, Nov 4, 2011
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WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski

NBA players on decertification call Thursday included Blake Griffin, Jason Kidd, Al Horford, Tyson Chandler and Deandre Jordan, sources say.
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#75 redhotrox, Nov 4, 2011
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STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
Belief of numerous decertification backers is that deal w/NBA would come during 45 days 'tween petition to vote and actual vote. Because ...

STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
If decert got that far, backers believe it would create some long-awaited player leverage because some owners greatly fear legal unknowns

STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
Decert by NO means bulletproof strategy. One source says: "It's risky and messy." Yet it could (stress COULD) even spark things this weekend

#76 ascaptjack, Nov 4, 2011
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STEIN_LINE_HQ Marc Stein
RT @JanelFdez: Look what happened in NFL. Decertification didn't help (NBA PLAYERS HAVE NO OTHER POTENTIAL LEVERAGE SOURCE. NONE)

#77 ascaptjack, Nov 4, 2011
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Frustrated by an inability to negotiate a new collective bargaining agreement with owners, some NBA players have sought the advice of an antitrust attorney on the possibility of decertifying the National Basketball Players' Association. Such a maneuver would likely be followed by the filing of a class action antitrust lawsuit against the league and it would make the cancellation of the 2011-12 NBA more probable.

Here are the biggest questions with players considering decertification of the union:

What would decertification mean for NBA players?

Decertification would mean that NBA players formally remove the capacity of the union to collectively bargain on their behalf. Players would become independent employees of NBA teams and would lose union protections they currently enjoy. The NBPA would continue to exist, but only as a trade association, which would have limited capabilities for bargaining (for instance, the players' association could continue to bargain in regards to licensing deals, such as for players' images and likenesses in video games). Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and other union leaders would likely see their influence over players wane, while other players or possibly player agents could attempt to fill the leadership void. Without a unifying entity, however, rival factions of players and agents could emerge and hinder attempts to resolve the labor crisis, especially if the NBA is not sure with whom they should negotiate.

Decertification would provide players with a powerful legal weapon: the ability to file federal antitrust litigation against the league.

Decertification is not an immediate event, nor is it instantly reversible. Instead, it normally requires recognition by the National Labor Relations Board, a federal agency that regulates union-management activities. In the alternative, players could seek a disclaimer of interest, which is a similar but swifter and more retractable step and refers to the players' association disclaiming interest in representing players. Either decertification or disclaimer of interest would enable players to file antitrust litigation.

NBA players are inclined to opt for decertification because it could help them defend against the league's unfair labor practices charge with the NLRB. Decertification would signal that the players are serious about the Players' Association no longer representing them; only disclaiming interest could suggest that the players' association will reclaim interest the moment a deal is reached with the NBA. The NBA could argue that the players are only disclaiming interest to bring antitrust litigation.

How likely is it that the players would prevail in an antitrust litigation?

Not likely.

For starters, the NBA has been one step ahead of the players when it comes to antitrust litigation.

...

In terms of its legal arguments, the NBA may be poised to offer more persuasive reasoning for the legality of its lockout than the NFL could muster for its own lockout. ... The NBA can maintain that if players can sign to play abroad, then a lockout will not cause their professional basketball careers irreparable harm (or at least will cause much less harm than NFL players suffered/would have suffered). In response, the players would likely contend that playing abroad, and living in a foreign country (and possibly relocating one's family there), constitutes a materially different experience than having an NBA career and living in a U.S. city. Plus, many NBA players have not been able to find roster spots abroad.

The NBA also boldly demands that if the union decertifies in a way endorsed by a court, the league should be able to declare all player contracts void and unenforceable. The league insists that because the Uniform Player Contract (signed by every NBA player) is contained in and governed by the collective bargaining agreement, player contracts should become void once the collective bargaining relationship between the league and players ends. In response, the players can argue that the dissolution of a union should not empower an employer to void contracts between individual employees and the employer. If the NBA ultimately prevails in its argument on player contracts, players would collectively stand to lose billions of dollars. It would also throw the league and its franchises in an uncertain state, with every player, save for those drafted in 2011 and who haven't signed contracts, becoming a free agent.

Where does the NLRB fit into this discussion?

Both the NBA and the union have filed unfair labor practices charges with the NLRB. They each argue that the other has failed to bargain in good faith. In May, the players' association asserted that the league refuses to offer any meaningful concessions in negotiations because, in the players' view, owners want a prolonged lockout. Two months later, the league contended that players, who have threatened to decertify their union and thereby commence antitrust litigation, have failed to bargain in good faith in hopes of filing antitrust litigation. The NLRB has to gauge whether the NBA and players' negotiation tactics are reasonable bargaining measures or merely abuses of the bargaining process.

...

If the NLRB ultimately determines that either charge is meritorious, it would then issue a complaint against the offending party and try to work out a settlement. If a settlement cannot be reached, the NLRB could seek a court order for injunctive relief, such as one that would enjoy the NBA from continuing the lockout. A trial for money damages could also be held and verdict from the trial could be appealed. The entire timeline could take a year or more and not end until possibly after a 2011-12 season will have been played or canceled.

There is reason to believe that the NLRB will not find that either the players' association or league has engaged in unfair labor practices. The willingness of the two sides to engage in substantial negotiations over the last few months, and the ability of the two sides to bridge some of the gap, suggests that they regard themselves as engaged in difficult, but substantive discussions.

If the players decertify, is a 2011-12 season more or less likely to occur?

Less likely. Decertification would probably be followed by the filing of antitrust litigation, which would take weeks or months to unravel, let alone resolve. While the league and players could still in effect negotiate during the litigation, since (like during the NFL lockout) settlement discussions over the antitrust lawsuit tend to cover the same issues driving the lockout, the litigation process itself would give commissioner David Stern greater reason to cancel the remainder of the season.

Consider also that financial considerations may only heighten owners' resolve to impose a lockout for as long as is necessary to procure a very different system of player compensation.

...

Put bluntly, if most teams will make more money by not playing games in 2011-12, then the prospect of losing those games is less troubling. With players appearing unified in their core arguments and also apparently prepared to withstand a lengthy work stoppage, the season could very well turn into one that never occurs.
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20....decertify/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2

#78 J.R., Nov 4, 2011

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As many as 50 disgruntled NBA players – including several All-Stars – participated in a clandestine conference call with a top antitrust attorney on Thursday to discuss the process of decertifying the Players Association, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Angry with the concessions already made to the owners and fearful of worse ones coming with the completion of a new collective bargaining agreement, the players could push for a scenario that throws negotiations into chaos and could eventually lead to the loss of the 2011-12 season. Paul Pierce(notes) played a prominent role on both calls, leading the charge on decertification, sources said. Participants in Thursday’s call included Dwyane Wade(notes), Jason Kidd(notes), Blake Griffin(notes), Al Horford(notes), Tyson Chandler(notes), Spencer Hawes(notes) and DeAndre Jordan(notes), sources said.

The players, frustrated with the deal union officials have been negotiating, held a call on Tuesday to discuss the state of labor talks with the NBA, and explored their options on Thursday with the antitrust attorney, sources said.

Said one player on the calls: “If nothing else, this takes us off our heels.”

Unless the Players Association refused to go lower than a 52-48 percent revenue split with the NBA and the remaining system issues went in the union’s favor, sources said there was broad agreement among the players on the call that the next step should be a serious consideration of decertifying the union and filing an antitrust suit in federal court.

There also was discussion about refusing to ratify a deal brought to the players by union executive director Billy Hunter and president Derek Fisher(notes), sources said.

...

Thirty percent of the union members would need to sign a petition to force a vote on decertification. A majority vote could then dissolve the union.

...

Part of the strategy by the agents and players isn’t just the act of decertification, but using the threat of it to gain leverage with the owners.

“This is not about Hunter and Fisher,” a source on the calls said. “The players want to know how to push the needle here. If talks this weekend don’t produce 52 percent, they want to know what options they have.”
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http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...lug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_players_lockout_110311

http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infom...ed:c=sports_blogs&feed:i=1.3295749&nopaging=1

As Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher spent Thursday afternoon attempting to prove there is no rift at the top of the NBPA's leadership, were a group of players plotting a coup? According to reports by the New York Times and Yahoo! Sports, about 50 players were on a conference call Thursday organized by their agents to discuss the possibility of dissolving the union if an acceptable deal wasn't reached this weekend.

There would need to be far more support than just 50 players, which represents barely 12 percent of the membership, to achieve a majority vote to decertify the union. But just the threat alone -- and the publicity of it -- could be a tactic to gain some kind of leverage going into Saturday's resumption of collective bargaining talks.

Decertification was a legitimate option in July, when the lockout began, but Hunter did not want to go that route. One reason could be because dissolving the union would mean Hunter would no longer be in control, ... but to make this move now would be like taking a poison pill for the 2011-12 season. With so many legal maneuvers necessary to complete the process, on top of the league's own litigation against the union, the battle would be moved from the negotiating table to the courts. And the sides have made too much progress toward an agreement to just simply give up now.

That's not to say the union is ready to surrender to the 50-50 split of Basketball Related Income just yet. ... The feeling is that Saturday's meeting has to produce some sort of effort toward a resolution for there to be any reason to believe this season can be saved.

And then there was this from Hunter: "I don't think there should ever be a circumstance where owners make the same or more than players."

With that, we will filter out the white noise of the agent-driven Decertification Army and the scandalous reports of Fisher's alleged back-door deals with David Stern and spoil the ending for you:

There will be a 51-49 agreement.

It is a split that Stern said he never had a chance to negotiate when Hunter walked away from the table last Friday after the league re-introduced the 50-50 split.

Certainly, as ESPN's Chris Broussard and Ric Bucher both reported this week, there are owners who aren't happy with the 50-50 split, so you can imagine a move to 51-49 will be even tougher for Stern to sell. But that doesn't mean he can't. Or won't.

The league already has $100 million in revenue sharing coming from the two richest teams, the Knicks and Lakers, combined. James Dolan and Jerry Buss are basically agreeing to help bankroll the weak sisters of the league just to get the game back to business. This hasn't been emphasized enough.

And yes, that group of influential agents hiding behind the curtain have drawn the line at 52.5 and will wield the threat of decertification if that number dips again. But that doesn't mean they'll get enough support to dissolve the union. Or will actually try.

The players already got the owners off one of the early, contentious issues: a hard cap. This point has been overlooked too often.

So as you read through and enjoy all of the well-written, earnestly-reported accounts of the mayhem and drama surrounding this masquerade, understand this: if there is going to be any kind of season in 2011-12, it'll be with a 51-49 BRI split.

That's the deal for the owners to make. That's the deal for the players to take.
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#79 J.R., Nov 4, 2011
Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
MadMax Member

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My two cents...fwiw...it's too late for decertification. Earlier in the game...like back in the summer...it might have worked. It won't now. I think the owners are too entrenched and this will only further that. They know that players will be cash strapped in January, and they'll go for the big prize of everything they want...and they'll get it.

Union can decertify, but I can't see any federal circuit disagreeing with the reasoning/precedent in Tom Brady, et al. v. NFL...I don't see injunctions against the lockout happening because the players actually have options in basketball (Europe) that they don't have in the pro football.

If they decertify, I think the season is absolutely positively done. I hope I'm wrong, because it seems like the chorus is getting louder and louder.

#80 MadMax, Nov 4, 2011

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