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In This Thread Every Post Must Contain A Lockout Update

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by DallasThomas, Nov 1, 2011.

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J.R. Member

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Probably not the most recent news but per Ric Bucher:

The planned meeting between the two sides could be the last chance to broker an agreement before Stern cancels another swath of games.
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#41 J.R., Nov 3, 2011

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hsf09 said: ↑

Probably not the most recent news but per Ric Bucher:
Click to expand...

The think I feared the worst is starting to come true. I think the whole season may get canceled. With the decertification talks and Hunter not budging past 52/48, we may not see another NBA game.

#42 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
The threat of decert is a strategy too. The players need leverage on owners; mere discussion of decert can help push NBA toward making deal.

#43 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33097848

If put to a vote, the consensus is that a majority of players would accept a 50-50 deal as a lesser of two evils when compared to the losses they would incur from losing the entire season. Amid all the other agendas and damage control flying around Thursday, that's what makes a potential rogue decertification effort by frustrated players so fascinating -- and potentially apocalyptic when it comes to the chances of salvaging a deal, and the season.
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#44 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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ascaptjack said: ↑

The think I feared the worst is starting to come true. I think the whole season may get canceled. With the decertification talks and Hunter not budging past 52/48, we may not see another NBA game.
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I won't be surprised by anything. I always thought it was half a season at best or nothing at all. Looking that way now. I digress. Back to the updates.

A group of 50 N.B.A. players intend to push for the dissolution of their union if a new round of labor negotiations fails this weekend, or if the talks produce an unpalatable deal, according to a person who has spoken to the players.

The movement was said to be entirely player-driven, and borne of a frustration with the pace of talks between the league and union leaders. The players have been locked out since July 1, and a month of games have been canceled.

Two conference calls were held this week between the players and an antitrust lawyer — once on Tuesday and again on Thursday. It is not clear whether union leaders have been directly informed of the effort.

“And the players are seriously considering decertification if a deal is not reached where the players’ proposals are in the final elements of the deal,” said the person connected to the players.

That means the players involved will oppose any deal that includes less than a 52.5 percent share of league revenues for players, or any number of proposed restrictions on free-agent movement. N.B.A. owners are proposing a 50-50 split of revenues and have held firm to that position. The league is also pushing to eliminate certain salary-cap exceptions for teams that exceed the luxury tax threshold.

N.B.A. and union negotiators are scheduled to meet Saturday afternoon in Manhattan. The group of disenchanted players is looking for progress toward a deal. If there is no progress, or if the progress requires further union concessions, the decertification effort will proceed.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/sports/basketball/nba-talks-to-resume-saturday.html?_r=1&src=tp

#45 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
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http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33097848

UPDATE: If put to a vote, the consensus is that a majority of players would accept a 50-50 deal as a lesser of two evils when compared to the losses they would incur from losing the entire season. Amid all the other agendas and damage control flying around Thursday, that's what makes a potential rogue decertification effort by frustrated players so fascinating -- and potentially apocalyptic when it comes to the chances of salvaging a deal, and the season.

To dissolve the union through decertification -- as opposed to a disclaimer of interest, in which the union would voluntarily cease representing the players -- a vote of 30 percent of union membership would be required to start the ball rolling. If that hurdle were cleared, a vote of 50 percent plus one of the membership would be required to make it official.

If decertification were achieved, the players would then sue the NBA for antitrust violations in federal court, a process that would take months to lead to further negotiations -- and potentially years to reach a final conclusion, according to legal sources. The league already has threatened in a federal lawsuit filed in August to void all existing player contracts if the union dissolved.

If the players decertified, they would be legally barred from reforming the union for one year -- unless the owners decided to recognize the union again at some point prior to that in order to achieve a collective bargaining agreement.

In a word, this would be chaos. This is where we are in a lockout that has gotten so messy, so fast that it is impossible to predict what cataclysmic events might unfold next.

It is possible that the mere threat of decertificaiton, which would all but ensure a lost season of revenues for the owners, could provide a much-needed trigger point to move the negotiations forward Saturday. But it also has the potential to further fracture the union, pitting star players and their high-profile agents against the rank-and-file who are more willing to accept the best deal they can get now to salvage close to a full season of earnings.

Two sources involved in the process agreed that the most logical solution to break the impasse would be for Stern and Hunter – the highest ranking officials charged with getting a deal – to meet privately and discuss parameters for the obvious tradeoffs that must occur to bridge the BRI gap. But one of the people said this was not a possibility that Hunter and Stern discussed in their telephone call Wednesday, and there is speculation that Stern’s hands are tied by hard-line owners who are preventing him from offering the final tradeoffs necessary to satisfy each side.
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#46 GreatOne1978, Nov 3, 2011
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As many as 50 disgruntled NBA players – including several All-Stars – participated in a clandestine conference call with a top antitrust attorney on Thursday to discuss the process of decertifying the Players Association, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Angry with the concessions already made to the owners and fearful of worse ones coming with the completion of a new collective bargaining agreement, the players could push for a scenario that throws negotiations into chaos and could eventually lead to the loss of the 2011-12 season.

The players, frustrated with the deal union officials have been negotiating, held a call on Tuesday to discuss the state of labor talks with the NBA, and explored their options on Thursday with the antitrust attorney, sources said.

Said one player on the calls: “If nothing else, this takes us off our heels.”

Several prominent NBA agents were proponents of the calls, sources said.

Unless the Players Association refused to go lower than a 52-48 percent revenue split with the NBA and the remaining system issues went in the union’s favor, sources said there was broad agreement among the players on the call that the next step should be a serious consideration of decertifying the union and filing an antitrust suit in federal court.

There also was discussion about refusing to ratify a deal brought to the players by union executive director Billy Hunter and president Derek Fisher(notes), sources said.

“We’re beyond frustrated with the concessions that have already been made,” one source on the calls told Yahoo! Sports. “If the union gives in on the [basketball-related income] split and the open system issues don’t go to the players side, decertification may be the next step.”

The NBA and the Players Association have scheduled a Saturday bargaining session to try and restart talks toward ending the four-month NBA lockout that’s already cost the league an entire month of games.

NBA owners have publicly and privately insisted they will not go beyond a 50-50 revenue split with the players. Many hardline owners are pushing NBA commissioner David Stern to lower the offer below 50 percent, sources said, but Stern knows doing so would make it extremely hard to get a deal done.

Part of the strategy by the agents and players isn’t just the act of decertification, but using the threat of it to gain leverage with the owners.

“This is not about Hunter and Fisher,” a source on the calls said. “The players want to know how to push the needle here. If talks this weekend, don’t produce 52 percent, they want to know what options they have.”
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http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_players_lockout_110311

Interesting tidbit from Lawrence Katz, the lawyer handling the union's National Labor Relations Board case against the NBA. In discussing possible decertification by the union, Katz said he believes that the NLRB -- which would handle any decertification vote by the union if such a vote were authorized by union members -- would not approve the vote.

"They would block any decertification petition," he said.
The decert talk has cooled in recent weeks, but if union members decided they wanted to dissolve the union, they would need 30 percent of their members to sign a petition declaring they want an election to decertify. The NLRB would then hold a hearing to determine if an election was warranted. If it approved, the election would proceed, and a simple majority of union voters voting yes would decertify the union. (A tie would also mean decertification, because the union would not have received a majority of votes.)

Yet Katz says the union's pending complaint against the NBA would make decertifying an impossibility.

"The vote on decertification is a vote controlled and run by the NLRB," he said. "In my opinion, they could not process the petition for a vote because of the pending petition."
Meanwhile, the union's complaint with the NLRB against the league grinds on, just as the league's NLRB complaint against the union and its lawsuit filed in federal court in New York continues.
The union filed the complaint in May, claiming the league was not negotiating in good faith on a new collective bargaining agreement. The complaint was amended in July after the league canceled the Las Vegas Summer League. The complaint has been investigated by the NLRB's New York office and has been passed on to the Washington, D.C. bureau.

No date for a decision has been announced; if the NLRB decides to file the complaint against the NBA it could then ask a judge to end the lockout.
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http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/david_aldridge/10/17/morning-tip-labor-update/index.html

#47 J.R., Nov 3, 2011

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In layman's terms, basically if the owners don't give in to 52/48 or if they agree to a 50/50 but with better system parameters, the players will push for decertification.

Sorry guys, you can kiss the 2011-2012 NBA season Good Bye!

#48 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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WE ARE FREAKIN BASKETBALL FANS. Theres a difference between being informed about the business side of things and just flat learning NBA news have to be regarding how they deal with courts every day. This is Bullsht seriously.

#49 GreatOne1978, Nov 3, 2011
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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck

Two ways to look at decert threat: If NBA is worried, maybe it makes better offer Saturday. Flip side: union handcuffed and can't make deal
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sam_amick Sam Amick

Sources confirm that a smaller call took place on Tuesday with the attorney.
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ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix

Have to believe though that decertification would be, at this point, the death knell on the season. Courts won't move fast enough.
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sam_amick Sam Amick

Two sources confirm @WojYahooNBA report that approx 50 players had conference call w/ antitrust attorney 2 discuss decertification today.
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sheridanhoops Chris Sheridan

Updated NBA lockout news: Involuntary decertification being pushed. Details of how it would happen below video here: bit.ly/vvFYab
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#50 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
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ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Decertification topic du jour right now but it could be a negotiating tactic. Move up to 52 owners, or watch it become a court fight.

alanhahn Alan Hahn
Only leverage union has is decertification. Owners know decert now means season lost. It's turning the tables. Dangerous game of chicken #fb

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Two ways to look at decert threat: If NBA is worried, maybe it makes better offer Saturday. Flip side: union handcuffed and can't make deal

sam_amick Sam Amick
Two sources confirm @WojYahooNBA report that approx 50 players had conference call w/ antitrust attorney 2 discuss decertification today.

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Have to believe though that decertification would be, at this point, the death knell on the season. Courts won't move fast enough.

sam_amick Sam Amick
Sources confirm that a smaller call took place on Tuesday with the attorney.

#51 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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...

Anyhow, I agree. I hate the business side of sports. Ugly, ugly, ugly but..I guess you take the good with the bad. Or not.

#52 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
Last edited: Nov 3, 2011
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I just don't see any scenario, in which the hardline owners (Sarver, Gilbert, Sterling, etc.) give in and agree to a 52% BRI split to the players.

These owners are willing to lose the whole season, if not, more, in order to tell the rest of the world how big their dick is.

#53 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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IMO, there is zero chance more than 50% of the players would vote now to decertify the union. That ship has sailed.

I wonder if the union could put ratification of whatever the owners offer Saturday and decertification both on the ballot and knock both issues out at once. I think this is a legit way to let the players decide their own fate instead of being hostage to the union and those who want to decertify. There would be 3 possible outcomes.

1. They ratify the new CBA (which makes the decertification vote irrelevant).

2. They vote down the CBA and decertify the union.

3. They vote down the CBA and do not decertify.

As fans, we all want #1 to happen except for the delusional few of us who think the players can get a better deal later on. I honestly can't understand why all of the players can't see what happened in hockey and understand they are guaranteed to be gutted and filleted also. Scenario 2 basically cancels the season and gives hardline owners exactly what they want. Kiss the NBA goodbye for a year. #3 above is unlikely.

#54 A_3PO, Nov 3, 2011
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If we lose the season, I wonder what these bums would do.
Some of the top players might try other sports.
Others would work at places like home depot.
They should all go back to school and try to get some sort of education
so they can make better choices like how to negotiate a CBA in their favor.

#55 valorita, Nov 3, 2011
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ascaptjack said: ↑

In layman's terms, basically if the owners don't give in to 52/48 or if they agree to a 50/50 but with better system parameters, the players will push for decertification.

Sorry guys, you can kiss the 2011-2012 NBA season Good Bye!
Click to expand...

Works both ways really.

This could be the pressure both sides need to get the deal done. Keep the updates coming!

#56 JayGoogle, Nov 3, 2011
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A_3PO said: ↑

IMO, there is zero chance more than 50% of the players would vote now to decertify the union. That ship has sailed.

I wonder if the union could put ratification of whatever the owners offer Saturday and decertification both on the ballot and knock both issues out at once. I think this is a legit way to let the players decide their own fate instead of being hostage to the union and those who want to decertify. There would be 3 possible outcomes.

1. They ratify the new CBA (which makes the decertification vote irrelevant).

2. They vote down the CBA and decertify the union.

3. They vote down the CBA and do not decertify.

As fans, we all want #1 to happen except for the delusional few of us who think the players can get a better deal later on. I honestly can't understand why all of the players can't see what happened in hockey and understand they are guaranteed to be gutted and filleted also. Scenario 2 basically cancels the season and gives hardline owners exactly what they want. Kiss the NBA goodbye for a year. #3 above is unlikely.
Click to expand...

Sorry, A_3P0, I love your optimism, but with this recent news coming out, I really can't see an NBA season happening.

#57 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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darrenrovell darren rovell by KBergCBS
NBA players who want to decertify should stop talking to lawyers & instead ask the NFL players how that all worked out

sportsguy33 Bill Simmons
You know who hopes the NBAPA decertifies in November? Everyone running Netflix. They'd no longer be the dumbest people of 2011.

#58 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck

Gabe Feldman of Tulane law, on decert effort: “It’s a potential threat to all. It could signal the breakdown of collective bargaining talks”

One more note from Feldman: NBA lawsuit does NOT apply to decertification. It was aimed at "disclaimer of interest," which is different.

Disclaimer is initiated by union officials. Decertification is initiated by players, effectively a coup.
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#59 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
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NBA= No Basketball Association
NBA=No Bargaining Association

#60 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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