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In This Thread Every Post Must Contain A Lockout Update

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by DallasThomas, Nov 1, 2011.

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redhotrox Member

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Carl Herrera said: ↑

He's not even American and should not be allowed to vote.
Click to expand...

For some reason I knew you were going to say something like that, but I laughed anyway.

#521 redhotrox, Nov 8, 2011

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ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Billy Hunter tells @daldridgeTNT on NBATV that, as relayed by Paul Pierce, "close to" 200 players in process of signing decert "cards"

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
To reiterate: 30 percent of NBA workforce must sign petition to force decert vote. Then up to 45 days of lag time before actual decert VOTE

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Sources close to decert movement confirm they've collected signatures this week but also know WEDS deal-or-no deal deadline takes precedence

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
If there's no deal by Wednesday and deadline is not extended, then you can safely assume decert petition WILL be filed soon thereafter

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
But even if decert petition IS filed, union and league could/would continue to negotiate during those 45 days while NLRB sets up vote

#522 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
Carl Herrera Member

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redhotrox said: ↑

For some reason I knew you were going to say something like that, but I laughed anyway.
Click to expand...

Seriously, though, do they even have democracy in whatever Latino country that Scola is from or do they have tribal chiefs and shamans decide stuff?

#523 Carl Herrera, Nov 8, 2011
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First time to see the labor fighting, it is as entertaining as NBA games, lol

I perfer to watch NBA games though. I am tired of these

#524 Lonestar, Nov 8, 2011
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ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Thunder forward Kevin Durant told SI he was in favor of rejecting the NBA's current proposal

#525 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/chris_mannix/11/08/players.lockout/index.html

"The current offer on the table from the NBA is one that we cannot accept."

Those words, spoken by union president Derek Fisher after a players meeting in New York on Tuesday, was intended to send a clear message to commissioner David Stern, deputy commissioner Adam Silver and the NBA's 30 owners: Players will not be bullied into accepting what they have deemed an unfair offer.

But what about that offer? Internally, the players have made it clear that if the owners are willing to work with them on the system issues, they would be willing to make concessions when it comes to the split of basketball-related income. But those system issues have proven to be difficult to navigate.

With Stern's Wednesday deadline looming, here is a look at where the sides stand on many of the issues, according to multiple players briefed on the proposal:

Common Ground

• The "Super Tax": Both the players and owners have agreed, in part, on a punitive tax for teams that exceed the luxury-tax threshold. For every dollar -- up to $5 million -- that a team goes over the limit, they pay a $1.50 tax. In the previous CBA, it was dollar for dollar. Moreover, the two sides have agreed that the tax will get incrementally larger every $5 million.

• The Larry Bird exception: Both sides have agreed that the Bird exception -- a provision that allows teams to exceed the salary cap to re-sign their own free agents -- will remain the same.

• Length of player contracts: Previously, a team could sign its own free agent for six years and an outside free agent for five. The players have agreed to reduce those numbers to five and four.

• Minimum team salary: The minimum team salary must be 85 percent of the salary cap.

• Amnesty clause: A team may waive one player and not have that player's contract count against the cap. That clause may be used at any time over the life of the collective bargaining agreement.

• Injury exception: In the event of a season ending injury, a team will be given a one-year, $5 million exception to sign an injured player

• Restricted free agency: A team will have three days to match offers on restricted free agents. Previously, a team had seven.

• "Stretch" contracts: Teams may waive players and stretch the payments of the guaranteed money over a period two times the remaining years plus one.

Battle Ground

• Luxury tax: Two key issues remain in dispute:

A. The NBA has proposed that if a team goes into the luxury tax more than three out of every five years, it will be hit with an extra $1 penalty tax in addition to what it is paying in the super tax.

B. If a team breaks the tax threshold by $1, it forfeit its share of the tax money. Put simply, only non-tax-payers get any money back

The union opposes both provisions for the same reason: It discourages teams from going into the luxury tax.

• Mid-level exception: As the NBA has stated, the two sides have agreed to reduce the mid-level exception from $5.8 million to $5 million. However, the NBA wants any team who uses the mid-level to be limited to three-year deals. If a team is paying the luxury tax, the NBA's proposal calls for that team to lose the full mid-level and be limited to a smaller, $2.5 million exception. The players believe this both hurts the middle class and discourages teams from spending into the luxury tax.

• Qualifying offers: Players want more lucrative offers. Ownership wants them to stay the same

• Escrow: The NBA is seeking escrow protection -- believed to be 10 percent -- which would, in essence, guarantee the league hits its target BRI number. Players have offered to increase the escrow to a band of 8-10 percent

• Sign-and-trades: The NBA proposal prohibits luxury tax paying teams from executing sign and trades. The players are against that.

• Trade exceptions: The players want them increased. The NBA wants them to stay the same.

• Rookie contracts: While the rookie wage scale would stay the same, the union has pushed for incentivizing contracts to give elite rookies the opportunity to make more money quicker.

• Annual raises: Under the terms of the last CBA, players were entitled to 10.5 percent raises (for players with Bird rights) and 8.5 percent for everyone else. The union has offered to reduce it to 7.5 percent/6.5 percent while the NBA's offer was 5.5 percent/3 percent.

• Salary-cap holds: The union wants them lower. The NBA wants them to stay the same.
Click to expand...

#526 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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A lot of battlefightin' left do. This probably won't end well but certainly won't be surprising either.

#527 J.R., Nov 8, 2011

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hsf09 said: ↑

A lot of battlefightin' left do. This probably won't end well but certainly won't be surprising either.
Click to expand...

Looking like alot of battlefighting. how u

#528 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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KBergCBS Ken Berger
To correct the record, there were only THREE sign-and-trades involving tax teams during previous six-year CBA, according to league source.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Eddy Curry to Knicks, Kwame Brown and Laron Profit to Lakers, and Shawn Marion to Dallas. That's it

KBergCBS Ken Berger
There've been a grand total of TWO extend-and-trade deals that anyone can remember: Garnett to Celtics and Melo to Knicks. That's it.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
So after the players essentially accepted the league's 50-50 offer today, these are some of the issues holding up a deal. Non-issues.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
The luxury-tax-related items are important to the league, which believes it needs them to even the playing field. Those will be tough.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
But despite obvious that owners WILL follow through on threat to pull offer off table tomorrow, what's the fight about at this point?

KBergCBS Ken Berger
A 50-50 deal shifts $3.3B from players to owners over 10 years compared to previous 57 percent system.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
That's $330M a year, MORE than the owners said they were losing! Think about that.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Lots of people want to say players should've taken this deal and run. If you're owners and getting $330M/year, shouldn't you do same?

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Oh, and one more thing: Mr. Kessler, shaddup.

KauffmanSports Steve Kauffman
Have been around these guys (players&lawyers) and some flat out hate each other! Fans lose BB over personality conflicts. Unbelievable

#529 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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KauffmanSports Steve Kauffman
Honestly, have a duty to my NBA coaching clients,but otherwise I'd be fine if they cancelled whole season. Sabbatical would be awesome.

#530 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/16039362/despite-the-risks-nbas-hardline-owners-not-backing-down

If it weren't so serious, it'd be funny. For months, it seemed that a small but vocal group of hard-line owners were running the NBA's bargaining strategy with the players, but when it came time to make a deal, the moderates would take over.

As it turns out, the opposite is true.

It turns out, the proposal that's on the table for the National Basketball Players Association to accept by 5 p.m. ET is the moderate one. The hard-liners take over at 5:01 if the players reject it.

The New York Times has the details of a letter commissioner David Stern sent to union chief Billy Hunter on Sunday outlining the terms of the league's ultimatum and shedding light on details of a so-called "reset" proposal that will be forwarded to the players if they don't capitulate. The most onerous of those details are a 47 percent share of BRI, a hard salary cap, a rollback of existing contracts and a reduction in maximum salaries -- not to mention a $3 million mid-level exception (down from last season's $5.8 million), and three- and four-year contracts for non-Bird and Bird free agents, respectively (down from five- and six-year deals in the previous agreement).

Pretty sure there's something in there about meteor showers, mass floods and flames from the seventh circle of Hell rising up and engulfing one continent at a time until the Earth is transformed into a charred, oozing marshmallow. Read the fine print.

The driving force behind this reset offer is a group of hard-line owners who needed a tireless and significant working over by Stern in recent weeks to get them to agree to offer the players a 50 percent share of BRI and a system that technically has no hard team salary cap. According to multiple people familiar with ownership dynamics, the effort Stern had to engage in to rein in the hard-liners and make the proposal that is on the table until 5 p.m. Wednesday should not be underestimated.

"They're all good with 50-50," one of the people briefed on the negotiations said of the owners. "David had to push and pull to get them all there, but they're there. So why not give it to all the players and let them say, 'Yay or nay?' "

In any event, the idea that the hard-liners would run the show for a while, and if they failed to get the deal they wanted, the moderates and big-market owners like Micky Arison, Jerry Buss and James Dolan would come in and restore sanity -- well, that's not going to happen. And the way Stern has framed this ultimatum has been at once "sickening," to use Kevin Durant's description, as well as ingenious. How do you make a bad offer seem good? You put it next to a worse offer and tell the players, in the immortal words of Gilbert Arenas, "Pick one."

In recent days, multiple people with direct knowledge of negotiations have identified the nine teams pushing the hardest for a draconian rollback of salaries and rules governing player contracts and team payrolls. According to those people, the teams holding the hardest line in negotiations have been Atlanta, Charlotte, Indiana, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Portland and Washington. These nine owners or ownership groups have been trying, with increasing success in recent weeks, to recruit more moderate owners to their cause. If the players reject the deal on the table, the NBA will be turned over to the Hard-Line Nine, and it won't be pretty. "Nuclear winter," as Kobe Bryant referred to it in an interview with Yahoo Sports, just about sums it up.

As the New York Times reported Friday, Bobcats owner Michael Jordan has emerged as the ringleader of this group of owners -- referred to by one source briefed on the labor talks as the "original hard-liners." Though it may be surprising to some, Phoenix owner Robert Sarver and Cleveland owner Dan Gilbert have not been as hawkish in the negotiations as they have been portrayed, two of the sources told CBSSports.com. Nets owner Mikhail Prokhorov, it turns out, also is not in the hawkish camp, according to two people who disputed a CBSSports.com report Sunday to the contrary. I wouldn't wager my mortgage on who's right about Prokhorov, but I would love to have him at the news conference when this is over.

"The season, it is dead. Now your families, they will one day return."

Joking aside, the demographics of the true hard-liners are hardly surprising; all but the Hawks, 76ers and Wizards are in small or, at best, mid-sized markets. But something else significant rings true about the Hard-Line Nine: all but one -- Milwaukee -- received public financing for construction of their arenas, according to data compiled by the Marquette National Sports Law Institute.

Five teams -- Atlanta, Charlotte, Memphis, Minnesota and Portland -- received public funding that accounted for more than 80 percent of their arena costs. The Timberwolves, one of the biggest economic drains on the league, received a perfect score in this dubious contest by receiving public funds covering 100 percent of their arena construction costs, according to the Marquette data. The Hawks, whose ownership transfer from the disastrous Atlanta Spirit LLC contingent that fell through last week, were a close second with their 91-percent publicly financed Philips Arena.

The least of the offenders are the Wizards (23 percent publicly financed arena), 76ers (11 percent) and Bucks (0 percent). Of course, when this is over and the owners get a far more favorable labor deal, brace yourselves for the continued push in Wisconsin to trick citizens into paying for an arena to replace the Bradley Center. To my knowledge, sports owners have never tried a cheese surtax to pay for their arenas, but there's a first for everything.

The public fleecing by sports teams is bad enough when economist after economist has found that the arenas and surrounding developments almost never provide enough economic impact to make up for the cost even when the teams are playing. But if the log-jammed negotiations stall by Wednesday, possibly resulting in a protracted legal fight that would imperil the entire 2011-12 season, citizens in the above cities will continue to be on the hook for debt payments to support arenas left dormant by the lockout.

With few, if any exceptions, NBA teams will continue to pay rent in their buildings during an extended lockout in accordance with whatever lease agreements are in place (the Pacers, for one, live rent-free in Conseco Fieldhouse). But the lockout doesn't absolve the city, county or state governments in those places from continuing to make debt payments while the teams that benefited from the public funding refuse to play.

To date, only one city has so much as threatened to take legal action against the NBA to recoup revenues lost from the lockout. Last month, the Memphis City Council passed a resolution authorizing city attorneys to explore legal options over the estimated $18 million in annual debt payments for a potentially vacant FedEx Forum. It's hard to blame the city for wondering where that money is going to come from, considering the arena was 83 percent publicly financed, including $207 million in bonds sold by the Shelby County Sports Authority. Grizzlies owner Michael Heisley admitted to the Commercial Appeal last week that he doesn't even know what's going on in the negotiations that could shutter his free playpen for a season.

Apparently, the other cities whose NBA owners would be the most responsible parties if the season is canceled either don't know or don't care that they've been snookered. But I know, and somebody has to care, so I'll do that, too.

I'll take the words right out of the mouth of an agent who told me the other day, "The owners who are saying this [deal] isn't enough, stop hiding behind David Stern and stand in front of your communities and say why."

Here, here.

"If I hear one more person say they feel bad for parking lot attendants, I'm going to be sick," the agent said. "Do something. The parking lot attendant doesn't feel better when you say that. Stand up and take responsibility."

Of course, all of this could wind up being irrelevant if NBPA executives feel enough pressure from players to bring the league's take-it-or-leave-it proposal to a vote. Disaster similarly could be avoided if Stern has managed to keep one, final concession in his back pocket that he can drop into the players' laps at the last minute to compel union officials to shake hands and recommend the deal to the membership. Either approach would involve a rare dose of reason and common sense, two traits that have been badly overshadowed by ego and hubris in these negotiations.

If ego wins again, and if the union leaders reject the deal and find themselves getting slapped with the non-starter, 47-percent, reset-rollback-hellfire proposal, the players will hold them accountable by decertifying the union. You would be welcome to hold the players accountable for failing to realize they were never going to get a better deal, and thus should've taken this one. Many of you will call the players greedy and out of touch, which is another ingenious aspect of Stern's strategy: after being unreasonable for 2 1/2 years, the owners have now fitted the players for the bad-guy suit if this doesn't get done.

But if the owners don't get their way, who will hold them accountable for detonating a $4 billion industry and tainting the legacy of a sport in which they are mere guests -- many of them freeloading ones at that?

Who in Charlotte will dare to ask Jordan where the money is going to come from to make millions in debt payments that are supposed to be backed, in part, by city tourism revenues and seat taxes at the Time Warner Cable Arena? Who in Indiana will ask Pacers owner Herb Simon why the city agreed last July to pay $33.5 million toward operating expenses at taxpayer-funded Conseco Fieldhouse to get the team to agree to stay for three years -- two of which would include portions of a canceled season?

Who is going to tell Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor, the recently re-elected chairman of the NBA's Board of Governors, that his team has leeched off Minneapolis long enough when it comes time to find another politician to sucker the electorate into paying for $155 million in renovations to the Target Center? This, in a city still saddled with debt from its takeover of the building in 1995 and where $50 million is being diverted from the city budget over the next 10 years to fund capital improvements to the building -- for a team that hasn't had a winning season in six years.

Who in Portland is going to ask Paul Allen -- one of the richest men in the world and a silent assassin in the labor talks -- whether he personally is going to replace the event revenues that are supposed to fund the bond debt that partially funded the Rose Garden? And while Spurs owner Peter Holt wasn't mentioned on my sources' list of hard-liners, as the chairman of the owners' labor relation committee his fingerprints will be all over this death-knell proposal if it gets delivered to the players Wednesday night. Will anyone in the state of Texas, which has three NBA teams that would be idled by a season-long lockout, ask Holt to explain why the 84-percent taxpayer funded AT&T Center will be without its signature tenant and primary source of revenue?

Apparently, only the city of Memphis has noticed or decided to care. So I notice, and I care, and I regret to inform those cities that when they finally figure out what's going on, it could be too late.
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#531 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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KBergCBS Ken Berger
If nothing else, after having the whole thing dumped on their laps Sunday, players managed to flip script on owners today.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
It's now on owners to blow up season when they're getting $3.3B concession from players over issues most fans can't relate to.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Assuming players come back with 50-50 counterproposal tomorrow, the pressure everyone was putting on players to vote will be on owners.

#532 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
No Wednesday meeting set yet fior NBA players and owners...

#533 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011

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Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
No Wednesday meeting set yet for NBA players and owners...still chance they have one though

#534 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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Why do players care about the details of the luxury tax? They are going to get 50% of the revenues no matter what - if a bunch of teams go over the salary cap, all it means is that the total salaries are higher, which means everyone in the league gets a pay cut to get back down to 50%.

The stronger the luxury tax, the more likely a player will actually get paid the amount they sign for. Same with mid-level exceptions. The more opportunities there are to violate the salary cap, the less everyone's contracts become worth.

#535 Major, Nov 8, 2011
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Major said: ↑

Why do players care about the details of the luxury tax? They are going to get 50% of the revenues no matter what - if a bunch of teams go over the salary cap, all it means is that the total salaries are higher, which means everyone in the league gets a pay cut to get back down to 50%.

The stronger the luxury tax, the more likely a player will actually get paid the amount they sign for. Same with mid-level exceptions. The more opportunities there are to violate the salary cap, the less everyone's contracts become worth.
Click to expand...

Those have more to do with player movement and salary distribution than total salary. They are among the "structural issues" players want tweaked before they agree to the so-called 50/50 BRI. One specific concern is fewer MLE salaries means more minimum salaries.

Your point is well taken.

#536 A_3PO, Nov 8, 2011
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I think they either have a deal done by November 16th (when players officially miss their first game checks) or they don't have a season at all.

The optimistic side of me says that Stern has 1 or 2 concessions in his back pocket that he's willing to give to the union for them to say they at least they got something for their troubles.

But nothing out of these negotiations seem to be rational.

I think the players and owners are severely underestimating the casual fan's support.

#537 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011
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Also if I were Hunter and Fisher, I would can Kessler from these negotiations. There is a reason why he was kicked out of the NFL negotiations. He is just a cancer to these meetings as Allen or Sarver are.

#538 ascaptjack, Nov 8, 2011

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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Players saying they will take 50-50 deal - pending changes to system - changes entire dynamic of lockout. Question for owners is now ...

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Is it worth losing season over whether taxpaying teams get to do sign-and-trades and have full midlevel exceptions? That's the story now.

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
There are a few other issues concerning the luxury tax, escrow tax, etc. But those are fairly easy to resolve.

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
It comes down to owners' desire to ban taxpaying teams from spending, whether w/full midlevel exceptions or sign-and-trades.

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Maybe owners won't give up those demands. But it's hard to see losing a season over relatively minor items after players agree to 50-50 deal

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
As @KBergCBS calculated earlier, players' agreement to cut share from 57% to 50% equals more than $3 billion giveback over 10 years.

#539 ascaptjack, Nov 9, 2011
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Jeff Kessler is obviously a successful lawyer, but this latest "plantation" comment is just idiotic. Say Stern is being sly or trying to play psychological games against the players or whatever, say he threat is empty. There's a lot of stuff you can say about him without making reference to plantation and hint at slavery, which has NOTHING to do with the current negotiations.

It's a business deal, maybe a legal dispute if there's decertification or NLRB ruling, but I don't know what badmouthing Stern is supposed to accomplish. At the end of this thing, unless the players are actually gonna start a new league, both sides are going to work with each other as partners.

#540 Carl Herrera, Nov 9, 2011

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