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In This Thread Every Post Must Contain A Lockout Update

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by DallasThomas, Nov 1, 2011.

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ascaptjack Member

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ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
One court highlight: Judge to NBA lawyer: Your "allegations against union are pretty thin." Union lawyer, minutes later: "Thin loses."

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
League attorney, on union's alleged willingness to decertify: "It's like a taking a loaded gun and putting it on the table."

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
Judge's response: "It's not clear if there are any bullets in it," meaning unclear if union actually would decertify.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Court spokeswoman confirms U.S. District Judge Paul Gardephe did not rule on @TheNBPA's motion to mismiss NBA's lawsuit Wednesday.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Per spokeswoman, Gardephe will ask parties to brief him in writing on additional issues before ruling. Timing of ruling uncertain.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Union asking judge to dismiss lawsuit, in which the NBA seeks declaratory judgment on legality of potential decertification by @TheNBPA.

#21 ascaptjack, Nov 2, 2011

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KBergCBS Ken Berger
According to @TheNBPA, lawsuit has no merit because union hasn't disclaimed interest in representing players and has never done so before.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Lawyers for @TheNBPA characterized lawsuit as "forum shopping," an attempt to beat players to venue for possible antitrust action.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Lawyers for NBA contend union officials have frequently threatened to disclaim, which warrants a ruling from judge on legality.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
No further bargaining scheduled. But @TheNBPA officials will convene Thursday for strategy session. Unclear how many players will attend.

KBergCBS Ken Berger
There's little significance to today's court proceedings. Both sides recognize best shot at a deal is to agree to one at bargaining table.

#22 ascaptjack, Nov 2, 2011
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HowardBeckNYT:

"NBPA board will meet Thur in NY. Some hope that talks w/NBA could resume Fri or Sat, tho nothing set yet. Story soon at http://t.co/7q9grIqc"
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#23 DallasThomas, Nov 2, 2011
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http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-salary-cap-chat-with-larry-coon-11211/

Apparently they aren't even remotely close to a deal. Owners wanted players to accept 47% with the system agreements they were close to agreeing on. 50/50 unacceptable with that system.

#24 inishi, Nov 2, 2011
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/s...sume-between-union-officials.html?_r=1&src=tp

Another tense meeting to address the N.B.A. lockout will take place Thursday in Manhattan — only this time without owners or league officials and without a prospect for a deal. If a consensus emerges, it will be solely between the leaders of the players association.

Keep up with the latest news, on the court and off, with The Times's basketball blog.

The union’s executive board is holding its first in-person meeting since labor talks collapsed last Friday, and its first since reports of a rift in leadership began circulating.

If there are political or philosophical gaps between Derek Fisher, the union’s elected president, and Billy Hunter, its longtime executive director, they will try to close them, in full view of the union’s staff members and the eight other players on the board.

From there, union leaders hope to turn their focus back to their collective bargaining strategy, and toward re-engaging the N.B.A. at the bargaining table. There is hope that talks could resume Friday or Saturday.

But first, the union must address an internecine battle that for five days has overshadowed the lockout itself and threatened to derail the bargaining process. Fisher and Hunter are said to be at odds, and one published report said Fisher was trying to cut a secret deal with the N.B.A.

Fisher and Hunter have spent the week issuing statements and letters affirming their unity, while trying to calm a 430-person constituency that is antsy over the imminent loss of paychecks.

The damage-control efforts have supplanted any attempt to break the 125-day stalemate with the league, which has already canceled a month of games. That is why players, agents and even N.B.A. officials are eager to see what message emerges from the union Thursday.

“I think there will be a lot of clarity coming out of the meeting on Thursday,” said one person aligned with the players, who has communicated with both league and union officials this week. The first agenda item, the person said, is “to hash out the Derek Fisher situation.”

Two people with ties to the union said the issue was mostly resolved in a Tuesday conference call involving Fisher, Hunter and the board. But one person said it was important for everyone to speak face to face before the matter is put behind them.

The controversy began Saturday, when FoxSports.com, citing an anonymous source, reported that Fisher was trying to broker a deal with Commissioner David Stern without the union’s knowledge. According to the report, Fisher “promised” the union would agree to the N.B.A.’s proposed 50-50 split of revenues. Hunter has vowed not to accept less than 52.5 percent, a stance that contributed to the breakdown in talks last week.

Fisher reaffirmed his loyalty to the union in a letter to players. He also issued a statement decrying the FoxSports.com article — which accused him of making deals for personal gain — as “disgusting, defamatory and a flat-out lie.” Hunter restated his support for Fisher in a letter to players.

Although a fractured union might seem advantageous to the N.B.A., league officials privately are alarmed; there is little hope for a labor deal if union leaders have conflicting agendas.

Until now, the relationship between Hunter and Fisher has generally been solid, according to people who have worked with them. But there are some tensions.

According to a person with ties to both men, Fisher believes that a 50-50 deal should at least be considered, if it would salvage more of the season. Hunter is more adamant about holding firm, believing the long-term gain justifies the short-term losses.

In general, Fisher has assumed a far more hands-on role than the typical player-president — issuing memos, scheduling meetings and becoming the union’s primary face and voice during the lockout. Hunter, who does not relish the role of spokesman, has welcomed and even encouraged Fisher to take the lead at news conferences.

But Hunter has sometimes bristled at Fisher’s assertiveness in setting the agenda — sometimes without Hunter’s input — according to people who have worked with them.

The picture is also muddled at the bargaining table, where Jeffrey Kessler, the union’s outside counsel, serves as the lead negotiator. According to people involved in the talks, Kessler does 80 percent of the speaking, while Hunter, who has a reputation for not being detail-oriented, takes a secondary role.

The intensity, stress and protracted nature of the labor talks have inflamed nerves and heightened everyone’s concern about the outcome. The union has already made huge concessions, and no one wants to be blamed for a bad deal.

The stakes are higher for Hunter, who earns $2.5 million a year as executive director, than for Fisher, whose role is temporary. This is also probably Hunter’s last labor deal; he turns 69 on Saturday.

While union leaders try to repair the cracks, antsy players are sending out warning flares on Twitter.

“Take the 51% man and let’s play,” Glen Davis, the Boston Celtics forward, wrote Wednesday.

Cleveland’s Samardo Samuels wrote last Friday that a 50-50 deal would be fine. “It’s church money away,” Samuels wrote.

Impatience is the most prominent theme, however. As Terrence Williams, a Houston Rockets guard, wrote on Wednesday, “Hey @TheNBPA Let’s play BALL enough with the stare off.”
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#25 ascaptjack, Nov 2, 2011
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jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
MLB labor update: Don't expect any meaningful news on CBA talks through the weekend, at least. This could drag on a while

#26 MadMax, Nov 3, 2011
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Alright. Next meeting set.

After breaking off talks last Friday, the NBA and players’ union are expected to resume face to face negotiations this Saturday in New York, according to involved sources. Boston Herald
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#27 coachbadlee, Nov 3, 2011

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MadMax said: ↑

jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
MLB labor update: Don't expect any meaningful news on CBA talks through the weekend, at least. This could drag on a while
Click to expand...

MLB?

Son, this is the NBA, the man's league!

#28 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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Players are getting antsy already...give it another month at maximum until the union caves in.

#29 LCII, Nov 3, 2011
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LCII said: ↑

Players are getting antsy already...give it another month at maximum until the union caves in.
Click to expand...

please don't derail the news feed thread.

#30 heypartner, Nov 3, 2011
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LCII said: ↑

Players are getting antsy already...give it another month at maximum until the union caves in.
Click to expand...

A month? Please, I give it less.

More players are gonna start speaking up, as Big Baby Davis, Terrence Williams, Battier and Stackhouse did.

They'll accept a deal around Thanksgiving.

#31 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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heypartner said: ↑

please don't derail the news feed thread.
Click to expand...

sorry brah. Here's a lockout related news item. Not really an update, but if all the players had Billups mindset, we might be in this for the long haul:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/sto...uncey-billups-forfeit-14m-salary-get-fair-cba

#32 LCII, Nov 3, 2011
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ascaptjack said: ↑

MLB?

Son, this is the NBA, the man's league!

Click to expand...

holy crap, i'm sorry!! my fault!!! i just saw labor news and copied it here. wow.

#33 MadMax, Nov 3, 2011

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KBergCBS Ken Berger

Mason: "It's about much more than 50 or 52 or whatever. There's still a system that hasn't been addressed."
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daldridgetnt David Aldridge

Roger Mason confirms Boston Herald report that talks between league and union will resume Saturday in NYC.
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daldridgetnt David Aldridge

Mason, on union's exec committee, says perception that sides are just a couple % points from a deal is wrong. Says much to do on system.
Click to expand...

#34 J.R., Nov 3, 2011
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WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As many as 50 NBA players were part of conference call with anti-trust attorney Thursday discussing union decertification, sources tell Y!

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
There were two conference calls held this week -- Tuesday and Thursday -- without knowledge of NBPA officials, sources tell Y!

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Calls included several All-Stars. One source on calls told Y!: "We're beyond frustrated with concessions that have already been made."

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Here was theme: If NBPA drops below 52% on BRI, and/or remaining system issues go league's way, then this will become movement to decertify.

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Story coming on Yahoo! Sports soon.

#35 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33097848

NEW YORK -- Declaring their unity and determination not to accept a bad deal just to save the season, officials from the National Basketball Players Association said Thursday they will meet again with league negotiators this weekend in hopes of reviving the stalled labor talks.

Bargaining will resume Saturday after NBPA executive director Billy Hunter called NBA commissioner David Stern and asked if he wanted to "take another stab at it."

“I don’t know that we’re going to accomplish much, but we’re going to meet,” Hunter said. “The only way we can get a deal is by meeting.”

The talks, which collapsed yet again last Friday over the contentious split of basketball-related income (BRI), were reignited after federal mediator George Cohen called Hunter this week. Cohen, who excused himself from the negotiations after they broke down Oct. 20, offered to “resurrect his services,” Hunter said.

Hunter said the union is fine with Cohen rejoining the talks, but was waiting for Stern to give the go-ahead. In any event, the two sides will reconvene Saturday in Manhattan with “no preconditions, none at all,” Hunter said. “I think it’s not wise or prudent for us to … let huge gaps of time go by and let the clock run and not meet. Because then we become more entrenched in our respective positions.”

The three-hour strategy meeting, attended by Hunter, union president Derek Fisher and members of the players’ executive committee, took on the distinct tone of a damage-control session once a small group of reporters was led into the room. Hunter said the union executives and players had spent only 15 minutes total on a conference call this week and in Thursday’s meeting addressing reports of a rift between he and Fisher, but spent more time than that addressing the reports to the media.

Fisher denied having unauthorized discussions with league negotiators in which he reportedly told them he could sell a 50-50 deal to the players, and Hunter denied having a confrontation with Fisher on the matter – as reported last weekend by FOXSports.com. Union vice presidents Keyon Dooling, Maurice Evans and Matt Bonner weighed in with impassioned support of Fisher, whom Dooling called “the best president that we’ve ever had as a union.”

“I think the questions need to start being directed toward Mr. Stern and the owners as to why this gap, if it's so insignificant, hasn’t been closed by them,” Evans said.

And therein lay the real issue – not sideshows or conspiracy theories or questions about whether the president of the union discussed under what circumstances the players would move from their formal position in which they are requesting 52.5 percent of BRI. What negotiations on the remaining system issues can be accomplished to compel either side to move from its economic position?

The owners were formally offering the players a 50-50 split after about $600 million in expense reductions previously calculated under the CBA that expired July 1. But Hunter, explaining for the first time why he walked out of last Friday’s bargaining session, said the league was attempting to use those system issues to “horse trade” from a 47 percent offer to the players up to 50 percent. And Hunter also said he’s heard “rumors” that when the two sides reconvene Saturday, the league may come back with an offer that is less than the previous proposal of 47 percent – which hadn’t officially been the owners’ position since at least Oct. 4.

“Where do I expect them to start?” Hunter said. “I won’t tell you where I expect them to start. … We have an idea of what we need in order to get a fair deal.”

According to multiple sources familiar with both sides’ negotiating strategy, the pivot point for Saturday’s resumption in talks hinges on the remaining system issues that are crucial to getting the players on board with a further compromise on BRI. Primarily, they are the owners’ proposal to forbid luxury tax-paying teams from using exceptions such as the Bird and mid-level and engaging in sign-and-trade deals; the luxury tax “cliff” that magnifies the expense for a team wading into the tax because of the swing that exists between receiving and paying tax money; and an increased tax penalty for repeat offenders, or teams that stay above the tax line for multiple years.

Neither side has said publicly or privately that its existing offer on BRI represents a “best and final” offer. And neither side can present such an offer by moving from 52.5 percent (players’ proposal) and 50 percent (owners’ offer) until the remaining system hurdles are negotiated.

“It’s difficult to peg the number without knowing what comes with it, in terms of the system,” Fisher said. “And it’s extremely difficult to fully negotiate a system without knowing what the split will be. I think that’s why it’s gotten so hard and so dug in here in the last couple weeks.

“I don’t think any of us can begin to speculate on what our group – in particular, this group sitting at the table and our larger body – will be willing to agree to,” Fisher said. “We have a feel for what we need to present a fair deal.”

Two sources involved in the process agreed that the most logical solution to break the impasse would be for Stern and Hunter – the highest ranking officials charged with getting a deal – to meet privately and discuss parameters for the obvious tradeoffs that must occur to bridge the BRI gap. But one of the people said this was not a possibility that Hunter and Stern discussed in their telephone call Wednesday, and there is speculation that Stern’s hands are tied by hard-line owners who are preventing him from offering the final tradeoffs necessary to satisfy each side.

“I don't think the battle is within our union,” Dooling said. “That's not where the rift is.”

But with various players tweeting this week about a desire to accept the best offer the union can get now in order to save the season, Fisher and Hunter are in an extraordinary position: defusing that angst and presenting a unified front while also holding the line on making significant further concessions when every negotiated aspect of the deal to this point has gone heavily in the owners’ favor.

“We want to get to back and play,” Fisher said. “But we realize the ramifications of agreeing to a bad deal at this moment. And we know our fans want us to get back out there. But from our perspective as players, this particular collective bargaining agreement will forever impact the circumstances for NBA basketball players. And we can’t rush into a deal that we feel is a bad deal, just to save this season.”

The meeting Thursday at the union’s Harlem offices offered a window into the tension, frustration and responsibility that rests with Fisher and Hunter to close this deal in a way that satisfies current players who want to return to the court and others who will be affected by it for a decade or longer.

With Hunter being pressured by agents and star players who want him to hold firm at his current proposal of 52.5 percent – down from 57 in the previous deal – and with Stern also feeling Heat from hard-line owners, it is unclear whether the two men who ended the 1998-99 lockout with a private, all-night negotiating session have another season-saving deal in them. Or more important, whether they have the same authority each enjoyed in January of ’99, when they emerged with a handshake agreement on the very morning when Stern had threatened to cancel the rest of the season.

The presence of Cohen or another mediator, which Hunter and the union’s executive committee favors, couldn’t hurt. A league spokesman could not confirm one way or the other Thursday whether Stern and deputy commissioner Adam Silver would agree to more mediated talks. Some involved in the talks believe Cohen never would’ve let Hunter walk out of the negotiations last Friday, a move that Hunter said Thursday he did not regret.

“I thought it was appropriate,” Hunter said. “I thought that we had given enough. … The signals that I thought I was getting, or that we were getting, were that they would be receptive to moving off their number. And when they went back to 47, then all of a sudden it became clear to me that that wasn’t the case.”
Click to expand...

#36 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
I hope the players kicking around decertification at this stage get very, very good legal advice.

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
The fact this decert news is coming out 36 hours before (another) crucial meeting will make some suspicious union knows and/or is OK w/ it.

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
To be clear, I don't know if union is aware, and decert would cost Hunter his job. Just reached union official, who declined comment.

#37 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Remember, there are two ways to dissolve a union: disclaimer (by union officials) or decertification (initiated by players themselves)..

#38 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Decertification drive would mean it is done w/out union officials' participation or approval essentially dismissing them.

#39 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011
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WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
To decertify, 30 percent of NBA players need to sign petition to bring it to vote. Then, simple majority of 400-plus needed to dissolve it.

#40 ascaptjack, Nov 3, 2011

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