Mr. Clutch, kelvin cato is a children's book writer. he wrote a book entitled "H.O.O.P. - Helping Out Other People" a few years ago. btw, i think that is an admirable thing. go dr. cato!
Thank you. It's a shame that someone has to go through several paragraphs to state what should be obvious. Is Cat perfect? Hell no. But he IS.....far and away....the best player we have for the money (excluding rook contracts), and he's getting better every year. The groupthink on this BBS can be ridiculous at times. I wish these lemmings would find a cliff.
raging fire, you hit the nail on the proverbial head!! Cat, Yao, and Steve aren't the problems as individuals, but their styles don't mesh, that's the problem. Steve and Cat are both slashers who do the same things well and the same things poorly(aka decision making, passing). If we want to run our O through Yao, then we have to provid him with the right complimentary role players. We can't have both of our starting guards being basically the same player. Steve is a better player, so Cat is out by default. This isn't a knock against Cat, he may very well go on to a productive career some place else, but Imo it won't be with the Rox (either this year or next he will be gone).
Hey I like Mobley too, but who would Mobley start over in the Western Conference. He's a sixth man. He needs the ball to score and with Steve and Yao in the starting lineup, Mobley's talents on offense don't mesh.
I don't necessarily disagree with your first couple of sentences, but why is Cat out by default? I realize that conventional wisdom states that the team who gets the best player in a trade gets the best end of the deal, but again....why does that mean Cat is the obvious pick to go? My personal opinion is that IF Francis is the better all around player, the difference is negligible....maybe 5% better if anything. I would imagine most of the Mobley haters here would think (judging by the string of comments I've witnessed over the past few years) that Francis is something in the order of several billion times better than Mobley. Considering myself to be somewhat rational, I would like to think that most rational people would think Francis to be in the vicinity of around 5% to 20% better than Mobley. So....giving the most rational Mobley detractors the benefit of the doubt, I'll say that Francis is 20% better than Mobley. Statistically, they're so close it's not funny. Francis of course has more assists and turnovers because of his defined role as the main ballhandler. He also has much better rebounding stats, but the jury is out on how much that really benefits the team. Francis has a 7 year deal worth 85 million, and Mobley has a 6 year deal worth 31 million. So....if Francis is 20% better, but he costs about two and a half times as much, how is it that Cat is the obvious choice for a trade? I know there's the argument that you can only put five men on the floor at any one time, so you want the five best men on the floor, but at the same time, we do have a salary cap in place and our owner is NOT Mark Cuban or Paul Allen. We have to spread our available money around in the best manner we can. But if a "good" player becomes available, and the trading team only wants Francis in exchange, what do we do? If we perceive this player to be the rough equivilant of Francis but he fills a need better (offhand, I'm thinking of someone like a Shawn Marion, but I'm sure there are people out there who would think we shouldn't trade Francis for anything less than Shaq...and then we should "think" about it), do we make the trade? I mean, if we can get the Suns (or whomever--just an example) to take Mobley and Moochie, that's great, but if they demand Francis, and we feel the player is the equivilant....but fills a need better....what do we do? I think Mobley and Francis are pretty much clones of each other. They are both athletically gifted, they both have some room to grow in the basketball smarts department, but I have seen some improvement in both of them. I think Mobley is the better defender, but Steve is more athletic. I actually think Mobley is slightly smarter when the heat is on, and they both can have some Clutch moments. Other than that, I don't see a whole lot of difference. Except for the fact that Mobley counts less than half of what Steve costs against our salary cap. Anyway, I don't see it as cut and dried as some of you people. If an all-star becomes available and he fills a need, I don't mind trading another all-star (Steve) to get him.
I agree with you Pole. All the Rocket bashing is over the top. BUT if I see Cat iso one more time and not even look to pass to a team mate I will absolutely lose it!!! While he is definately a clutch player he just seems to play with the ball at times and will dribble it off his foot, knee or leg. His play at times is just frustrating for contending team. I do believe he will be the perfect 6th man if we do revamp this team.
Pole= cat is out by default because, a) he isn't better than the other guy that he is IDENTICAL to. We can argue this, but SF avgs. more points, more assts. more rebs. etc.. b) Cat's contract makes him much more tradeable than Francis. U made my point for me, when u said that Mobes makes about 1/2 the money cat makes. There are rules in the CBA that make trading SF almost impossible.These aren't statements made out of disdain for the Cat, they are statements made out of FACTS.
What about Ray Allen, Jason Richardson, Penny Hardaway, Corey Maggette, Wesley Person, Doug Christie,?????
Pole, I think you are pretty much on the money about this. Couple of things to add: 1) I have resigned that the Francis-Mobley backcourt doesn't function as well as their individual talents because their offensive strengths are largely similar as are their weaknesses. Neither is a super heady, consistent, fundamental, ball handler, team organizer and distributer. Thus while I don't think we break them up just to break them up--if we got a comparably valued player for either one odds are we would have a better team. 2) Francis does have considerably more potential would probably be one of the 10-12 or so most sought after players in the league. He may only be 10-20% than Mobley better right now, but he is younger, more athletically gifted, and probably a little better pure shooter. Thus his ceiling as a 1 or 2 or anywhere is just considerably higher, plus he also has lot more endorsement/fan drawing potential. 3) b/c Francis is BYC player, it makes him really hard to trade until next August. Personally, if we could get equal value in a 4--J Oneal, Brand + a little, Gasol + a little--I would probably spring for it. Marion I would probably not--as that guy just really folds when the going gets tough. It would be hard to do until next summer though, which leads to 4. 4) Mobley is a lot more tradable right now. He isn't a BYC player, and has a great contract. It would be very unlikely we could land a Oneal, Brand, Gasol or Marion with him--but I would consider (with thrown is for salary and plus a little more in some cases) for possibly a Dre, Odom, possibly either Battier or Swift + a little, Brent Barry, A. Williams, maybe Crawford, maybe Kurt or Tim Thomas as the key player. 5) Again though, we don't have to trade Mobley, nor do we have to break the backcourt just yet. Though IMO I don't see this backcourt as the backcourt of our future because of my belief in #1.
Rockets already said Francis is our franchise. But I would trade him.... EITHER ONE. JUST ONE HAS TO GO. MOBLEY OR FRANCIS. Francis is of course a better player....with way more potential.....and well......they are both pretty similar. Rocks can't contend with these two...unless Mobley becomes a 6th man and we bring in another guy. Francis can go. I would like Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, Shaq, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, maybe Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace + something maybe.....and yeah that's it. OH YEAH. JASON KIDD. Hell no to Shawn Marion. Mobley......would love to see him go too. Trade him. Please!!! I think Mobley is a better shooter than Francis.
Yeah, I really like Mobley & how he's matured throughout his career. He does still spend a little too much time complaining to the refs, which I don't appreciate. And he is a black hole ... once the ball is in his hands, it's likely no one else will see it. But hey, he's a 2 and his primary role on offense is to score points. Even with his shortcomings, I think Mobley's one of our greatest assets.
Obviously Dirk, TD, Shaq, Kobe, T-Mac, KG and CW are out of the question from the other teams perspective. But I think you are close with Oneal, Brand, and maybe Kidd if NJ was about to lose him for nada. I would add maybe Gasol (+ a little), definetly Pierce if he were on the block, maybe Jamison (+ substantial), Mash (+ substantial), SAR & Terry, Peja + Bibby, maybe a few more combinations if offer for Francis or Francis + filler. No way to Marion & Sheed as the base unless Amare, Bonzi, Zach or maybe DA were included.
OK, maybe Ray Allen but definitely not the others. So that's 3 SG's in the West that are better than Cat. 3 out of 14. That sounds like he's pretty good to me.
I think SF and CM can co-exist. they're similar players but i'm sure you guys know bball is about matchups and who's hot - remember when Grant Hill and Stackhouse were teammates? they were pretty good. ie) if bruce bowen is taking CM while tony parker is on SF, chances are we'll do better with steve driving to teh cup and mob taking a back seat that game. next season, if both of them pass more and knwo their role, I think we'll do all right.
actually, if everyone knows their roles, we'll do alright. and even not need to move anyone away (well, a better guard rotation). they just need to know their exact roles.
I don't think it's a good idea for Mobley to continue as a starter next season for Houston. Sixth man, yes. I think it's the perfect role for him. Besides, being 6th man doesn't mean less minutes. I still expect Cat to play 30+ minutes off the bench. And it won't be surprising if we see a 3-guard (PG, Francis, Mobley) lineup plus Yao plus another player on certain occasions. If they were able to snatch Penny from Phoenix, that would be ideal for the Rockets. They can start with: PG-Hardaway SG-Francis SF-Posey PF-Griffin C-Yao with Mobley as 6th man. If they want to go run-and-gun, they can play: PG-Hardaway SG1-Francis SG2-Mobley C-Yao + another player (Small Forward or PF) I'm not worried about Francis and Mobley with Yao on the court at the same time demanding touches, as long as there's a good PG running the show.
whats wrong amare, you and penny dont get along out in phoenix? how would you like to play w/ moochie?
All the guys I listed imo give the Rockets more than what Mobley gives them, in terms of what the Rockets need. Wesley Person would be perfect for the Rockets starting line up. A spot up shooter for Steve or Yao to kick it out to. Penny could take ball handling responsability, Magatte and Richardson may not be better players today but that's debatable, and I think they will definitly the better players in the future, and Doug Christie is a better shooter, passer, and defender than Mobley. Oh yeah, and Bonzi Wells would start over Mobley.
