Nash is a pipe dream. He will never leave Dallas and Cuban can pay him much more than we ever could. I think the player that we could get that is a smart, savvy 2-guard that can allow steve to play off of the ball more and Cuttino to come off the bench would be Brent Barry. I have seen him run the Seattle offense from the SG position and is money from the three point line which will spread the floor. Barry is a free agent at the end of this year, but with Seattle having a huge logjam in its 2/3 spots we may be able to get him. They have Ray Allen/ Flip Murray/ Rashard Lewis/ Radmonovic all playing the 2/3, meaning Barry may be expendable for some frontcourt depth. Dammit!! If Griffin hadn't lost his mind and gone AWOL we could have spared Cato or even Griffin to get our hands on Barry, but now i'm afraid our frontcourt depth will falter!
i'm not arguing that i want nash, necessarily, i was just making a point. the thing is, nash breaks down defenses and makes his teammates better. francis makes his guys look inept.
let me spell out the reasoning more clearly then... Given: Nash = A Francis = B Mobley = C Team = D Assumption: (A + B) > (A + C) = B > C Nash and Francis are greater than Nash and Mobley = Francis is greater than Mobley Proof: if B > C then D - B < D - C Team without Francis is less than Team without Mobley therefore: Team is greater with Francis than without and ... egn's original statement "if you bring in a legit PG then this team is better without him." is proven to be false. tongue firmly in cheek, of course
I think Nash Mobley is better than Nash Francis. Mobley has shown that he gives you everything Francis does from the SG position, plus he is a much better defender, especially against SGs. Francis is a better PG than Mobley because Cat's passing abilities are very, very rudimentary, but Mobley's passing is adequate for a SG.
The reason we don't move Francis to SG is because of his defense/lack of size (assume he's willing to oblige). However, if he gets beat by the opponent PGs every night, what's the difference letting him get burned by other SGs? I agree that trading for a true PG and moving Francis to SG is the best scenario. But Berry's perimeter D is not very reliable, same for Nash's. If we have a backcourt combo like Berry/Francis. We'll have to play zone, which is what JVG hates to do. Last season's Eric Snow was perfect but his new contract is too big. How does Francis/Amechi for Finley/Best sound?
what he is saying is A + c > B+C so he was right. Nash/Mobley is better than Steve/Mobley. Your reasoning suggests its possible to get Nash and keep steve,but thats not reality. He was saying pg/sg(nash/cat) is better than sg/sg(steve/cat) he is right, your wrong.
you have to be kidding me... steve as a pg, when he has to consintrate with distrubuting the ball still scores more points than mobley while mobley just has to constintrate with scoring. Francis a just a sg then doesnt have to worry about being a distrubuter and can easily score 30 a night. Steve is way more talented and atheltic, hes quicker and stronger for his size...
Of course we're all just dreaming now, and just talking basketball, so all reality aside...let me continue... I'm not going to spit hairs on what combination is better than the other (Nash/Francis , Nash/Mobley...)...in the end...Nash makes both Francis and Mobley better... Heh..
I would like to get rid of them both. But since that is not the question I would have to go with the backcourt of Nash/Mobley. There are numerous reasons as to why I would go with this combination versus the other scenario that involved Francis. This opinion will surely draw its antagonists, but it is a reflection of how I believe the direction of the team should be going. 1. Francis, though touted with much of the physical aspects a player could want, it is all for nothing if the player does not have the right mind set. I was getting ready for work the other morning and as I was flipping the channels for sports, I came across Jim Kelly talking on the morning show Cold Pizza. The question was presented to Jim as to why there is a shortage of quality QBs in today's NFL versus in his time. And though not related to basketball it can be related to any athlete in a team oriented sport, he responded with many QBs today have alot of physical tools but they don't have the brains to be great quarterbacks. Instantly, after he said this, two words came to mind: STEVE FRANCIS Though there is no doubt in my mind that Steve could thrive in a gaurd oriented offense (a la the 76ers with Iverson), but I do doubt he has the main tool (the brain) to thrive, and more importantly, help everyone else thrive in an offense that exploits Yao's dominant characteristics. 2. Secondly, the reasoning behind the departure of Francis is due to character issues, i.e. conflict of interest. From the day the Rockets drafted Francis, he has been told he is the man. Management backed this up with an effort to building a team (or try to) around him. His mentality of "The Franchise", though partially subdued by his inability to execute even the simplist of tasks, still rages on. It is this mentality that I believe the Rockets should rid themselves of, as management trys to effort this team in a new and bright direction. 3. Francis' inability to grow and improve from year to year leads me to my third reason for trying to move Steve. I think this inability is largly a byproduct of Francis' inconsistancy on the court. Players with the inability to constantly deliver, in terms of betterment of the team, on a nightly basis cannot be heavily depended upon. We cannot wait around for Steve to find or develop a game that coinsides with that of Yao Ming Why? Because it will never happen. The time spent waiting on Francis is not time well spent. That time could be used developing chemistry with Yao and the players that work with his game to bring out his undeniable talents. We can't wait around forever. Enough is enough. Four years, going on five, with minimal, if any improvement. It's time to cut the cord. 4. Mobley's ability to adapt, for the most part, is why I have choosen him over Francis. Not that I think Mobley is better than Steve, or even that he sould deservedly be on the team for that matter, moreover, he just seems to fit a little bit better in the mix. Combine this, with his defense (though not great, is still better than that of Steve's), leads me to believe that he is more suitable for that role. Also, Francis is not a spot shooter. He seems to rely on the dribble to create space for his jumpers; further dwindling the shot clock. I can go on, but I think this should give you enough of my reasoning. I hope this is maybe able to shed just a little light. egn
It's funny how Steve Nash played for years and was considered basically an average PG. Phoenix traded him and a bunch of more stuff for Jason Kidd. He played in Dallas and basically was a nice little player. Then Dallas drafts Nowitski and builds a killer offensive team around him and suddenly he's God's gift to point guard play to people here. Consider that it was YEARS before any Nash team ever went to the playoffs. Consider that if it was up to Nash, Dallas would have lost in the first round of the playoffs. Nick Van Excel had to come in and save that team. And he did it by scoring from the PG position. That fool! Doesn't he know that even though he had the hot hand and the rest of the team was scared, he's a PG and he should not score even though he could he should PASS becuase that's what point guards do not score and lead their team to back to back playoff series wins. Doesn't he know that no team could ever win anything with its high scorer being a PG?
egn, some good points, and i can't say i disagree. i was thinking largely in terms of "on the court". but if we want to include extraneous factors, i'm with you. given a shot at a legit point guard, i'd be willing to give up francis. if the choice is Cat or Steve, then dollar-for-dollar, you get much more out of Cat than you do Steve. Cat is the better "value". that would allow you to bring in a name at the point, or a true point and better support at another position. still, if we only consider what happens on the court, i'd prefer Steve at the 2 over Cat. consider that if we do bring in a legit point, he won't go 48 minutes a night, and i'd like to see Steve take over at the point for 10 minutes a game rather than Moochie.
How do you figure this??? Kidd went from Dallas to Phoenix during the 96-97 season. Nash's first year with Dallas was during the strike shortened season of 98-99. So you are wrong. And in the playoffs last year NVE had the hot hand. It wouldn't have mattered who it was; any team would have let the player with the hot hand keep rolling. And also, it is not just here that people recognize Nash. He is widely known among the NBA as one of the league's elite pgs. I don't know where you're going with this, my friend, but my suggestion to you is that you need to take two weeks off and then quit.
The more I think about it, the more I feel dealing Steve Francis is the right move to make. I have been a pretty big Steve Francis supporter in the past, but honestly taking a step back, I really cant see much improvement in his game in his game after 4 full seasons and part of a 5th. The guy still has no idea how to effectively lead a fast break (its amazing to me how many times the guy can goof a 3 on 1), the guy still turns it over like crazy by making bad reads and boneheaded plays and worst of all, he has not improved at all under JVG. I was very optimstic going into this season b/c I honestly expected Steve Francis to take a huge leap under JVG in his game, still being a good 20-22 PPG scorer but also being able to effectively handle these other PG duties. I have no problem at all with a PG that scores over 20 PPG, Gary Payton did it all the time in his Sonic days, but you absolutely have to be able to get your teammates involved first, get the ball moving and be able to lead fast breaks. In addition, starting out the season, Steve was doing a solid job defensively, but all that has vanished into thin air. PGs (esp Utah's) have made routine trips into the lane causing the interior players to get into foul trouble on a regular basis. These btw arent great PGs, we're talking about players of the caliber of Raul Lopez and Mo Williams. This was the problem last season with Francis (where any halfway decent PG would blow right past him) and has started up again on a regular basis. Reality has definitely set in once the Rockets have started playing some legit competition, and it is very disheartening. I was naive enough to think a simple coaching change was the answer to the teams woes, but it goes much deeper than that. As much as I cannot stand Cuttino, I have to give the guy his props this season. Cat is playing a much more efficient game than he ever was and taking much better shots. Does he still take some bad shots? No question, however those are much less and fewer in number. Cuttino is picking his spots much better this season in the offense and doing a very solid job defensively. It is very disheartening, on the other hand, the lack of improvement Steve Francis's game has shown. That being said, even though the odds of it are highly unlikely, I would not at all be opposed to dealing Steve. If Seattle was willing to part with Rashard Lewis and Brent Barry, I would make that deal in a heartbeat. Speaking of Rashard Lewis, its amazing to me how much his game has improved over his 5-6 seasons in the league. Every summer that guy works his a*s off and brings an improved game to the court. He does not have the press or popularity of Steve Francis, but the guy has become such a complete player now. Lewis has become an explosive SF that can score effectively from several areas of the floor (ie 3 pt land, post up, mid range, etc) to go along with his solid rebounding ability for his position. It is no coincidence Lewis is putting up 21 PPG along with 7 RPG on very good FG%.
The more of us who see the light and expose the fastly growing sentiment, in reguards to dealing Francis, the more likely he will be moved. As of the latest poll, the majority of the people on this board (true Houston Rocket fans), have voted to deal Francis above all others! This is the perfect media outlet to get the ball rolling. Both newspaper and radio outlets alike see what is going on, on this board. The word will get out!
Mmanal, I agree with most everything you said and I know you had to do some serious re-evaluation. I know for quite a while you thought moving SF to the 2 was the answer, and I entertained the notion as well. By late last season and even more so now though it is fairly clear to me this wouldn't fix most of the problems. Steve's offense--which I also admit a lot of the trade SF camp completely underestimate, is predicated on him dominating the ball whether another player brings it up the floor or organizes the other players or not. Yet moving him to a 2 spot neither helps the fact SFs most effective half court offensive game likely won't mesh with a passing-oriented big man-oriented offense nor lesson his defensive liabilities. Steve is an oustanding player but this team is a bad fit for him and he is a bad fit for the rest of the team. It is good to see when posters re-evaluate their positions, it means they are objective and constantly thinking. Of course I already knew this from many years of seeing your posts (even on that other board). I also like the idea of Rashard and Barry too, I was never a big fan of Brent (because while Brent got the talent, Jon seemed to get all his daddys balls), but I have rethought this and wouldn't mind at all with him as a Rocket.
Desert Scar, Thanks for the kind words. I definitely did have to re-evaluate on this thing; I suppose watching the disaster of what I expected to be a very good season brought me to that. It was tough b/c I have hated the way Mobley approaches baskteball for so many yrs now, but I have to be objective. Its plain to see for anyone that cares to that Mobley has improved a ton this season in terms of fitting into the team concept and becoming a more efficient ball player; Francis on the other hand has regressed a good bit and to me that is disheartening. Also, to read in this forum that the Rockets brass thinks Francis has improved a lot instead of regressing really makes me wonder if we are even in more trouble than we think. What kind of people do we have in our front office? As I was saying in another thread, I am very concerned now that the Rockets will trade away their current supporting cast in hopes of surrounding Francis and Yao with the appropriate fits. This is going to put a ton of pressure on Francis/Yao to have to put up a ton of pts every night. If you take a dependable third scorer like Mobley out of the mix who you know will give you 17 PPG every night, Francis and Yao will probably have to average 50 PPG between themselves otherwise the offense will be in even more trouble than in it is now. I just dont see this happening this yr or anytime soon. I would much rather build my team around Yao/Rashard/Mobley with Brent Barry running the offense than Yao/Francis and a bunch of role players.
How would you go about getting Rashard? We don't have the players to get Lewis, as the Sonics would not want Francis. The Sonics have Ridnour at PG for the future and Ray Allen at the two. There is no room for SF on that team. It doesn't add up. Barry on the other hand could be had.
