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Immigration Crisis in Europe - what should be done?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Sweet Lou 4 2, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    The usual stuff. Feed them clothe them; shelter them. Help them the language and live in Europe or the US rather than the destroyed unstable countries they are fleeing. Sort of similar to what happened as the US prolonged the Vietnam and El Salvador wars and eventually allowed a lot refuges into our country.

    In the medium to long term we should resist the warmongers who love to instigate regime change leading to failed countries-- even if done because of claimed interest in democracy or even human rights.

    The motivation or at least the judgement of these warmongers should be questioned given that they support some dictatorships e.g Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait and Egypt but claim that democracy made them destroy Iraq, Llbya and now Syria. I haven't heard the democracy or human rights angle as we in the US assist Saudi Arabia in tearing Yemen apart, but I suspect they might try to make the usual arguments eventually.

    As a practical first step, even though it is great for corporate profits, we should suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia asap and to Egypt the next day. Since we supply about 80% of the arms used to create these failed countries.

    I know the usual suspects will claim well they are AArabs so they have always killed each other and they always will, but this is weak.
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Let them all in even though Bernie Sanders hates immigrants because they take our jobs.
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    I guess I was waiting for someone else to start the thread.

    I agree with others that the US should be more involved, and probably the UN, instead of everyone letting it be the EU's problem, and then member states of the EU trying to play hot potato with it. The Iraq war we started is part of the genesis of the problem, so we have some responsibility to fix it. And, being part of the solution for the refugee problem may also help us in the war with Islamic fundamentalism, though I'm sure politicians will be freaking out about how many would-be terrorists would sneak in with refugees instead of thinking about the potential benefits.

    Generally, the Syrian refugees are the good guys from our perspective. They are people who don't want to fight in Assad's army, nor join ISIS. They are the people we want to be deciding Syria's future in the long-run, and we want them to do so while feeling a strong kinship with Europe and the US. To do that, we need to help them survive and to thrive, so that they can someday return to Syria as well educated and highly capable people who can guide their country in the model they've seen in the West during their refugee days. The current model of drowning in the sea or sleeping in rail yards isn't getting us there.

    It may also suggest we aren't being forceful enough in Iraq and Syria. We've seen already the high costs of engaging in ground wars there so I think we're rightfully wary of repeating those mistakes. But, the refugee problem is one of those costs of protracted proxy wars like we're waging now. I suppose the big difference is that the refugees are shouldering that cost instead of US citizens.
     
  4. hlcc

    hlcc Member

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    The worst thing about the Egypt is that, not only are we selling arms to them, we are providing billions to them annual in military aid, so we are pretty much giving them weapons for free.

    The problem with Saudi Arabia is even if we stop selling them weapons, someone else will. For all their talk of human rights, UK and France are bending over backwards trying to sell weapons to middle eastern countries. Terrible human rights track record so bad that it makes China looks like a saint? No problem, the British & French will sell as many tanks, fighter jets, attack helicopters as they need. Need to pay bribes to secure the deals? No problem, just look at the $1 billion in bribes paid by the British to the Saudi prince for the Al-Yammah arms deal. Investigations are making the Saudi prince look bad? No problem, the British attorney general will shutdown any investigation that the Saudi's don't like.
     
  5. The Stig

    The Stig Member

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    Their money is going to football stadiums and constructing shiny buildings (aka dick waving contest) that won't be filled up.

    Even then, the refugees can't go there because those guys are just going to force them into slave labor. They really have it bad. Only option is to go to the EU.

    The image of the dead boy was horrible to see. It's good to see a lot of countries trying to help them out though. You have anywhere from German football teams raising money and welcoming them into the communities to some fashion model cutting short a boat party to save a life.
     
  6. Baba Booey

    Baba Booey Member

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    The billions in aide are what they use to buy our weapons. I think it's actually a requirement of us giving them the money. While they are basically getting weapons for free, we are not double dipping by also giving them cash. We give them cash, then they buy weapons from our defense contractors with that cash.

    It's still a scam, but not quite as bad as you think. I think the scam is mainly there as another avenue to get US tax dollars to go towards weapon systems. The military industrial complex is too powerful.
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Good post, though it must be noted that countries we shattered rather quickly also have had the same problems. E.g Iraq and Libya. Thank God Russia and China were authoritarian regimes too strong for us to blow apart for the best of reasons of course. Think of the clustef*** hat would have caused.
     
  8. Two Sandwiches

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    I came here to post that, word for word.
     
  9. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

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    One could argue the wars America has waged in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya were total failures and led to all the unrest occurring over there while further inflaming sectarianism and providing opportunities to the extremist evil-doers to unleash their own war. The fact is...not a single one of those wars needed to be fought. They may have achieved objectives like taking out Bin Laden, Ghadaffi, and Hussein..but they left a bigger mess behind in their wake. The fact is those regions will never know our brand of democracy and it was a mistake to go in there thinking they could build them up. It's just not compatible with all the corruption, tribes, and those who want to enforce Islam based on how they interpret it. Dictators...as we now know...were the only ones keeping those countries and their people in line. It is the wishful thinking on the part of presidents, military advisers, and politicians that they can achieve their goals by unleashing wars on countries. All it did was create vacuums for extremists to fill and take over with. It was definitely not worth it. The sectarianism and divides between the types of peoples living in those countries ensured that they could never get a fair government to practice democracy because the governments always end up being lopsided in favor of some group versus representing interests in all people. I would argue that even the Kuwait invasion that started it all was a mistake. It wasn't our problem to decide. If the higher ups in Kuwait pissed off Iraq and gave them reason to invade, then that's their own damn problem or, at worst, a regional problem. But, we went in because of oil under the guise of helping poor little Kuwaitis who couldn't take care of themselves.

    The fact is the US fights the wars they want to fight when it serves their interests based on false outcomes dreamed up by advisers and politicians about how much better off everyone will be. But, they will gladly ignore other parts of the world and conflicts that even include genocide that they have no interests in. It's obviously hypocritical.

    The next war our politicians propose we have to fight...no way man. Someone better be attacking us or threatening to invade at our doorstep first. Too much money spent, lives lost, and anarchy left in the wake. Things are worse over there now than they have ever been and one reason is our meddling. The war on terror is an utter failure because all we did was provide the recruiting propaganda for it to expand. And, then they actually learned to fight their wars in unimaginable ways and not even all the air power and countless drone strikes have come close to stopping it.

    The only winning move is not to fight. How about a nice game of chess? The goal of stabilizing those countries now seems to be a pipe dream at best.

    But, yea, we do have a big obligation to help with the refugee crisis given we our responsible in a lot of ways.
     
    #29 Surfguy, Sep 3, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  10. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    i was in budapest in august for a few weeks. such a pretty city and nice people. communism left its' imprint though.
     
  11. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Money Laundering Scheme
    Take American Tax Dollars and give to America Rich
    using Foreign governments as filters

    Rocket River
     
  12. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Why are you so dumb? :confused:
     
  13. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    The German refugee camps are still a grey area for many as they have no status, employment, or mobility outside the camps. It's like time will stand still until the system sorts things out for them. This is far better than how other countries are treating refugee. There's pictures going around of a family throwing themselves on traintracks in Hungary as police try to haul them away. This is like Katrina but a couple magnitudes worse upon many different Houstons.

    I admit I haven't exposed myself to much of the refugee issues other than what I hear or read. The matter of border states not willing to accept reform or compromise reminds me of the US, except the US isn't a loose confederation of states anymore.

    I guess I should visit a camp before I leave.
     
    #33 Invisible Fan, Sep 3, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  14. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Western Europe is getting sick of it. They are no longer seeking political asylum by the time they reach Western Europe. They are leaving a safe political area in Turkey to go to Germany and others because the government benefits are better. Germany and most of Western Europe is getting really sick of it. They have no obligation to let the refugees become citizens or provide them any long term support. Further the United States really has no obligation to them either. Throwing money at the problem is short sighted. I suppose the USA could take 50,000 of them and make them citizens but there is no real obligation.
     
  15. Liberon

    Liberon Rookie

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    After seeing that 3 year old's dead body being carried by the soldier. I think it's beyond sad. I know people here that have children or young children can sympathize with the agony of seeing a dead 3 year old's body carried that way...
     
  16. shastarocket

    shastarocket Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Shame on Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, and Kuwait. SHAME. SHAME. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Syria?src=hash">#Syria</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SyriaCrisis?src=hash">#SyriaCrisis</a> <a href="http://t.co/ryuqNhTXhE">pic.twitter.com/ryuqNhTXhE</a></p>&mdash; Linda Sarsour (@lsarsour) <a href="https://twitter.com/lsarsour/status/639598375046893572">September 4, 2015</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  17. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

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    This should be talked about more

    I guess they are way too busy building soccer stadiums and palaces
     
  18. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Why do we expect the ME to do anything. They are not the city upon the hill. Neither is Europe. Whether it is fair or not America is who the world looks to.
     
  19. Buck Turgidson

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    Yep, welcome to Eastern Europe. It'll take a couple more generations to undo the social engineering that the Soviets did.
     
  20. shastarocket

    shastarocket Member

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    From my understanding Saudi Arabia has donated (a good amount of) money towards refugee camps in other countries, but hasn't officially accepted any Syrian refugees.

    Not an excuse, but we should understand all the facts.

    Honestly I strongly doubt even a public shaming will change their policy. Everything about that country screams "total control."
     

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