Scotland, Wales, Ireland.... Because of this they missed out on a lot of great players like George Best. DD
Let me ask you this then. Have you ever sped? Have you ever jaywalked? Did you consume alcohol before you were 21? All of those are breaking the law. If the bottom line is upholding why don't we max out our enforcement on all of violations of the law? Why cherry pick which laws you want to enforce if the principle is upholding the law. So admit that illegals contribute to taxes but you think its only our tax dollars that pay things. Last I checked things like sales tax go to the general fund and states aren't seperating out which taxes come from illegals and which come from legals.
I think he's asking, wouldn't the total tax/other monies received from citizens to state govt still be lower? Whether state's know which money comes from legal citizens or illegal aliens, there might be a significant chunk missing that comes from places besides sales tax which illegal aliens might not pay.
On the other hand though illegal aliens don't get things like unemployment benefits or Medicare or Medicaid even while they pay into them. So the tax burden very well likely balances out.
He was an amazing player, even Pele said he was the best ever. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bz73HZd4xFI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bz73HZd4xFI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> DD
I still don't understand what your point is. forget the lawnmowers, we're still talking about a difference of $7 an hour for labor. lets say you take three guys out. that's $21 an hour of saving, $168 of savings for an eight hour day, $840 a week, $3,360 a month, $40K a year. that's just a guy picking up some day workers at the local gathering spot, saving $40K a year. whatever your lawn mower numbers are, the fact that people are willing to do this job for $7 instead of $15 for an hour makes it a lot more available for the consumer.
Unless the price to the consumer is based on market and not profit margin. 40K a year is an extreme example. No way in hell you are getting day laborers for 7 per hour that will do quality enough work for you to stay in business. The real margin is about 4-5. Plus these outfits have about 5-6 months of actual work time. The real margin is that an air conditioner job at 10 per hour is available to legal workers but not to illegals. Why should I take a hard work job for 10 when I can work inside for that? So the real market should be 14-15 or so for landscaping. Anyways the crux of the argument is how did the price drop so much in the last 15 years? the answer is the equipment that allows yards to be done in 1/3 of the time compared to before so no matter what your labor costs per hour, the overall labor cost is significantly reduced. Got it?
For an immigrant that takes a job, its takes away at least the OPTION for legal citizens to do them. Our own legal citizens don't evaporate. They're getting outhustled by illegals, but no other country wants our unemployed laborers any more than we want theirs. Exactly. Illegals displace and undercut legals, simple as that. No matter what the state indicate. Demonizing immigrants as as savages is silly. They are to be commended for their diligence and hard work. Maybe its a contrived notion, but I always think why not work on our own ways for legal citizens to take the suppressed wages? Why not work on our own culture to do what illegals do? Yes, I'm suggesting lowering minimum wage. We can't overlook the aspect that we want to help our own out more than foreigners. I'd rather tell my young jobless desititute nephew to suck it up and pick those strawberries if its the only job in town. Than to tell him that he's above it and wait for something better to come along that will never come.
Right. If its just looked at as simple competition of who's more resilient, for overall humanity you favor the producers instead of the non-producers regardless of their origin. Though would we just ship our jobless people's "asses" out? As spoiled, entitled and lazy as some Americans might be, would we just want them to occupy the spots that immigrants vacate? Instead of pimping immigrants taking all their tax money they generate for services they dont use for themselves and we use on ourselves, maybe we can think there's SOME adaptability for our own citizens to take lessons from the immigrants. Over time maybe have some way to tell our own "Hey, before we outsource this, do YOU WANT A JOB or not? Cuz this is all you're getting for a while." Shouldnt have to ask that question, maybe Americans have already spoken with their feet on that. I dont know, maybe we might grow to appreciate the work the same way others do. Maybe Americans just are that listless toward hard work and its an irreparable condition. I get tired of throwing our own people under the immigrant bus I guess..
That is a good point and I have very mixed feelings about minimum wage. I will point out though that there are pleny of American citizens who circumvent the minimum wage and other laws by working for cash. American citizens already could take those jobs if there was a big move to do so. Recognizing of course that paying under the table is illegal too but if a business is going to break the law already for cheap labor I don't see why they would care if its an illegal immigrant doign the cheap labor or an American citizen. Another thing to consider though is that many illegals work at jobs making more than minimum wage also.
correct. Those jobs are NOT available to illegals right? Therefore they are forced to take less pay for harder work. I don't think we really disagree on my point here. The reason people are not willing to mow yards is illegals are willing to do it cheaper. If it was priced correctly many americans would jump at it to move up from 10 to a 13-14 per hour job.
no, they don't have the skills to work there, that's why the jobs they are forced to take don't pay crap. caseyh, I know this is your arguing style but I think 99% people agree that it takes more skill to operate a cash register than to push a mower edit: there is a minimum wage, pushing a mower is a minimum wage job, even though you have to do it outside the problem is those jobs will never pay that much because then it wouldn't be as viable a market. $7 to $8 is priced just right. you have not proven it isn't
What about unload a truck or unload a pallet to a shelf? Those are less skilled labor. The problem is you are saying "ok here is my labor rate 7-8 bucks per hour, prove me wrong." Try to hire a crew for that. You can't. You think mowing a lawn requires no skills until a guy wrecks your 11K dollar mower that you have financed. I guess that is beyond the point. I guess your point is now the illegals work for SO cheap that the increase to pay someone a fair wage would kill the industry correct? Well you are mistaken about the rates for modern day labor. I don't know how to "prove" this so this seems to be a stopping point. My main point is this, the reason the for the recent explosion in yard mowing is the recent improvement in mowers. 5 years ago you did not see zero turn mowers in Sears, Home Depot etc. well 15 years ago you did not see them in many real mower shops. Now every commercial brand makes them exclusively as their riders. The faster you can mow a yard the less the rate of labor impacts your cost. If you can give me a suggestion on how to prove these I would be willing to hear. This stuff is just common sense to me cause my friend was in this business.
I am not mistaken about modern day rates for labor, there is a minimum wage, these are not skilled jobs. we're not talking about unloading trucks which pay more than minimum wage and are still jobs held by americans. we're talking about the least skilled jobs in this country, which you can talk about wrecking a mower but again caseyh that's a ridiculous point. no one is going to give you $15 bucks to push a mower, its a silly concept. as far as proving costs reductions from new mowers, you claim to be the expert so just show some numbers. costs of the mower, cost to operate the mower, costs to maintain the mower, its not hard.
