Hey, love the Knicks all you want, just don't go out and talk about them and tell me how great they are because you are in Houston now and I don't care to hear or see about it. What's the difference? Hey, love jazz music all you want, just don't go out and play it and tell me how great it is because I don't care to hear it. What's the difference? Hey, love Jesus all you want, just don't go out and talk about him and tell me how great he is because I don't care to hear or see about him. What's the difference? It is called "tolerance" - something guys like MB obviously don't have when it comes to immigrants celebrating their heritage. I gotta tell ya', though, I played Latin music for many years on Cinco De Mayo and you're missing a helluva party.
One word: Reconquista. It is not just a word that Pat Buchanan made up to sell books. He got it from them. This isn't about Tolerance, Jeff. It's about being replaced.
Why am I not terrified? You are honestly suggesting that Mexicans (and other Latinos) want to take over America a little bit at a time and a group that represents some of the most impoverished and uneducated people in the country are doing it through a sort of reclamation conspiracy? Wow, talk about paranoia.
Jeff: I do not think that all Mexicans want to retake Azatlan (as they call it); I don't even think that a majority wants that. Most of them just want to get a better standard of living for their families, and many of them truly do want to become Americans. I have no problem with that. But there is no arguing the fact that a sizeable minority does want to do just that - retake the Southwest. Read the link I posted. Oh, nevermind, you won't like what it has to say...
OK, let's all go about trying to remove any public display (by individuals or groups) that isn't uniquely American. Let's see, in addition to Cinco de Mayo (darn Mexicans), their goes St. Paddy's (darn Irish), their goes X-Mas and the christmas tree (darned European tradition), their goes crosses (darned Christains, they did not orginate from here either), and their goes Columbus days (darn Spanish/Italians). Boy, that sounds a lot more like China than the land of freedom and opportunity in which its greatness was in no small part due to great minds from other places immigrating here and due to the importation of culture. FYI, many of the current lands in the SW were part of Mexico before it was part of the US land, and many of the rightful landowners with Spanish surnames had their properties swindled after annexation (something they were ensured that wouldn't happen in the peace treaties). Thus like Native Americans, like many African Americans (similarly had their land and farms taken post civil war through systematic violence and intidimation), many Mexican Americans could have awefully big gripes historically ( am not advocating reperations because after all it was many many generations ago, but just providing context). The fact that they fly the American flag despite this shows they are committed to America, but to forcably deny them from also celebrating other parts of their heritage is just plain wrong given the history. Now if any groups are plotting to kill Americans or ignore the rule of law then I can understand some sentiment against them, but otherwise, I can't.
I think there are several people here who could use some service to their country. I think I read that you're ex-military....good for you, MB, and well-said. I ship out this Thursday
I think there are several people here who could use some service to their country. I think I read that you're ex-military....good for you, MB, and well-said. I ship out this Thursday [/QUOTE] Good luck and God-speed.
Good luck, Lynus. And hey! Watch where you send those rounds! If you start blowing up 13Fs I'm gonna be pissed...
Lynus, good luck to you and your mates. Hope to see you posting again on the BBS soon. I read the link did a quick web search on <i> actual </i> Mecha groups (instead of hearing from a extreme right wing group about their key principles are) to read what they say they are about. For instance: http://www.stanford.edu/group/MEChA/phil/index.html http://www.utexas.edu/ftp/student/mecha/index.html#about My take from a quick read: yes they are on the radical side but no where do I see they encourage violence toward nor seperation from the US. On the contrary, education of Chicanos and empowering Chico communities to be self-sufficient and productive appear to be their primary goals (sounds like similar goals of some of our government funded urban community building projects to me). When they talk about political unity they appear to be referring from breaking out of the 2 party system that doesn't serve them--a radical idea shared by libertarians, reformers, greens, etc. So yea, they are somewhat radical, but to make them out to be on the cusp of war or trying to forcefully create independent Atzlan nation does not appear to be a fair representation of their key tennets. There is also what looks to be a Mecha video or role playing game, never heard of it. http://www.eyrie.org/~sw/mecha.htm I better make sure AmyPatrol doesn't quote out of context from those Robots or whatever, I didn't take me long to see how unbiased they are in trying to advance their views.
I recently joined the Army (Texas ARNG), but I don't ship until April. I'm going 13F (forwards observer/spotter), which is why I made that comment...
Desert Scar: Excuse me, but the sole purpose of MEChA is to reclaim Aztlan. That is one of their core principles. For anyone who didn't bother, this is taken from MEChA's Constitution: "general membership shall consist of any student who accepts, believes and works for the goals and objectives of MEChA, including the liberation of AZTLAN, meaning self-determination of our people in this occupied state and the physical liberation of our land." Do you think that they are going to come out and say that they want to forcefully retake the Southwest? If anyone in their organization has a brain in their head (and they do - it's a student group) then they are going to do it politically, economically, and socially instead of by force (although they will use force where it suits their goals). They will overpopulate us (with illegal immigration) and essentially steal the vote by getting a law passed that allows illegal aliens to vote (such a law is very much in the works - amnesty is the first step). When they steal the vote, they will begin restructuring the legal system to favor their own constituency (as all politicians do), and thereby economically discriminate against everyone else. The eventual goal is to force non-Latinos out of the areas they control. http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/6/5/154335 Most telling quote: "California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn’t like it should leave." Mario Obledo is with the California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations. Oh, and go here if you want it from the horse's mouth: http://www.angelfire.com/pq/altacalifassur/EPEDA.html This is El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán - and it's from MEChA's own mouth (not a "right wing extremist group"). It starts off: In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks, which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent. Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner 'gabacho' who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan Sure. They're just an innocent student activist group... This is not just a right-wing whacko conspiracy theory.
We also have extremist US groups. The problem here is extremism and really has nothing to do with immigration. Connecting things like MEChA (which, by the way, has had some great confrontations with the Young Conservatives of Texas on UT Campus in the past) to immigration and public celebrations is a cop-out. That problem is extremism, both by Americans and non-Americans (with differing goals, obviously). MEChA doesn't represent the average immigrant and more than Tim McVeigh represents the average American.
Hell, it's so good I'm going to post the whole thing: El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks, which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent. Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlán. For La Raza to do. Fuera de La Raza nada. Program El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán sets the theme that the Chicanos (La Raza de Bronze) must use their nationalism as the key or common denominator for mass mobilization and organization. Once we are committed to the idea and philosophy of El Plan de Aztlán, we can only conclude that social, economic, cultural, and political independence is the only road to total liberation from oppression, exploitation, and racism. Our struggle then must be for the control of our barrios, campos, pueblos, lands, our economy, our culture, and our political life. El Plan commits all levels of Chicano society - the barrio, the campo, the ranchero, the writer, the teacher, the worker, the professional - to La Causa. Nationalism Nationalism as the key to organization transcends all religious, political, class, and economic factions or boundaries. Nationalism is the common denominator that all members of La Raza can agree upon. Organizational Goals 1. UNITY in the thinking of our people concerning the barrios, the pueblo, the campo, the land, the poor, the middle class, the professional-all committed to the liberation of La Raza. 2. ECONOMY: Economic control of our lives and our communities can only come about by driving the exploiter out of our communities, our pueblos, and our lands and by controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and resources. Cultural background and values which ignore materialism and embrace humanism will contribute to the act of cooperative buying and the distribution of resources and production to sustain an economic base for healthy growth and development Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by nationalism and the Chicano defense units. 3. EDUCATION must be relative to our people, i.e., history, culture, bilingual education, contributions, etc. Community control of our schools, our teachers, our administrators, our counselors, and our programs. 4. INSTITUTIONS shall serve our people by providing the service necessary for a full life and their welfare on the basis of restitution, not handouts or beggar's crumbs. Restitution for past economic slavery, political exploitation, ethnic and cultural psychological destruction and denial of civil and human rights. Institutions in our community which do not serve the people have no place in the community. The institutions belong to the people. 5. SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the campos, the pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La Causa. For the very young, there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts. 6. CULTURAL values of our people strengthen our identity and the moral backbone of the movement. Our culture unites and educates the family of La Raza towards liberation with one heart and one mind. We must insure that our writers, poets, musicians, and artists produce literature and art that is appealing to our people and relates to our revolutionary culture. Our cultural values of life, family, and home will serve as a powerful weapon to defeat the gringo dollar value system and encourage the process of love and brotherhood. 7. POLITICAL LIBERATION can only come through independent action on our part, since the two-party system is the same animal with two heads that feed from the same trough. Where we are a majority, we will control; where we are a minority, we will represent a pressure group; nationally, we will represent one party: La Familia de La Raza! Action 1. Awareness and distribution of El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. Presented at every meeting, demonstration, confrontation, courthouse, institution, administration, church, school, tree, building, car, and every place of human existence. 2. September 16, on the birthdate of Mexican Independence, a national walk-out by all Chicanos of all colleges and schools to be sustained until the complete revision of the educational system: its policy makers, administration, its curriculum, and its personnel to meet the needs of our community. 3. Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors at every school, every available man, woman, and child. 4. Community nationalization and organization of all Chicanos: El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. 5. Economic program to drive the exploiter out of our community and a welding together of our people's combined resources to control their own production through cooperative effort. 6. Creation of an independent local, regional, and national political party. A nation autonomous and free-culturally, socially, economically, and politically- will make its own decisions on the usage of our lands, the taxation of our goods, the utilization of our bodies for war, the determination of justice (reward and punishment), and the profit of our sweat. El Plan de Aztlán is the plan of liberation! Yeah, they're not a threat...
Major: I agree. Extremism in all forms is IMO a threat. Right wing, left wing, whatever - it's trouble. But does that mean we should turn a blind eye to groups like MEChA? In my mind we should go after all of them. Christian Identity, Aryan Nation, MEChA, MALDEF, Black Panthers, Earth Liberation Front - go after 'em all.
I think that if the gov't tried to go after every extremist group it would not be able to function in any other capacity. It would then collapse and whatever extremist group was left would take over. We would all die. I would blame you.
