I don't know much about MeChA but the one on UT's campus is (or was) quite radical. In 1994 or 1995, a bunch of UT students were celebrating Texas Independence day, which MeChA didn't approve of (it was celebrating Oppression Day for them, or something). So they went to the West Mall (I think) where they had a cake and stuff, and started throwing up (yes, you heard me right). The YCT (our resident semi-radical right group, the Young Conservatives of Texas) responded by holding a rally telling either them or minorities (not sure which) to "Get out of our country". It got quite entertaining. In the end, unfortunately, the administration decided to stop officially celebrating Texas Independence Day for the next few years (students, of course, can still celebrate). I'm not sure if its still like that or not.
Hey giddyup: I know you're new here, and you have apparently only read my posts on the subjects of war and this MEChA business, so I can see how you'd think I was a "hard-core conservative". I am admittedly a hawk when it comes to defense, and I am also under no illusion that immigration has no ill side effects (some people who come here do not have good intentions). Just to clear things up on that, though: http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?threadid=28225 (I dislike Buchanan - not exactly a "favorite" of mine) http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?threadid=27863&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 (read my response to glynch’s question - I'm pretty liberal on alot of issues) Just to add to this, I am pro-choice, and I am not opposed to affirmative action (except when it discriminates against someone who is more qualified for a position). I am not religious, and I see religious extremism - Christian, Islamic, whatever - as one of the greatest threats to the US and civilization as a whole. I'm a gun owner myself, but I do favor tighter controls (I don't think that just any yahoo should be able to own one, I support mandatory triggerlocks and the assault weapon ban, etc)... I am anything but a "hard-core conservative". Like most people, I'm simply not a "hard-core liberal". I can understand why some people here would not understand the difference, though...
Yes Treeman, I read my links and the orginal you posted. Did I study them, am I going to study them, no and no? What is the point, as I get to below the actions of the groups themselves to me are a much fairer way to describe the group. But I'll play the bylaw game a little with you, who do you think wrote the bylaws and when were the written? I sincerely doubt they were written by the typical Mecha member of today. Rather it looks to me to come out of the 60s when they were directly confronting overt racism and widespread (and extreme) abuse throughout the SW. The bylaws may be similar or the same, but context around the group has changed. In fact if you ask militant Chicano's from the 60s (if there are some still alive, I don't know) I would expect you would find them very dissappoited in the non-revolutionary and non-militant ACTIVITIES of most ACTUAL Mecha members today. The Mecha activity I am aware of in Tucson is most focused on getting Mexican American school kids interested in higher ed (they go out to high school and stuff), forming bonds among other university students to encourage retention (this is probably the primary reason most have joined Mecha), and community development (arts, cleaning up parts of town, etc.). I suspect these, along with peaceful constitutionally protected political protests about things like Columbus day and Texas Independence day Major referred to, are the major activities of Mechas across the country as well--though I cannot speak for them. Further, again as I have said, I have personally never had hateful speech directed towards me or others from Mecha folks, nor heard hateful speech more generally about Whites or other groups. I judge groups and individuals more on the actions I am aware of by their members than bylaws that came about to a period of immense brutality, racism and exploitation where perhaps seperation seemed the only viable way to survive and thrive at the time, but maybe that is just me to weigh actions greater than bylaws. BYW Major, maybe they changed, but when I was at UT (88-92) the YCTs was a very, very radical group. I think they had a College Republicans group that was conservative but not radical, but the YCTs were extreme. For instance I remember when 1 buffoon had a sign "Hoorey for San Francisco" after the earthquake during the BART world series. Interestingly, I remeber NOTHING at all of a Mecha when I went to UT, I guess they were not in the limelight or Daily Texan much. While I was there me and my buddy also seriously considered joing the animal rights groups, we liked to eat meat and all, but man were the finest women involved in that group (at least from the Daily Texas pictures). We never did join the group though--I guess even in college we had some sense of dignity.
Desert Scar: Why do you keep harping on about "bylaws"? This is not a "bylaw", it is the guiding document for ALL MEChA chapters nationwide. There is a huge difference. It is not just adopted by some radical minority of chapters, it is the guiding document of ALL MEChA chapters. So you have never personally seen them engaged in any radical activity? Well then, I guess none of them ever engage in any radical activity... (great logic there, sporto ) Major (someone who seldom agrees with anything I have to say ) just gave you a personal example of such activity, and you choose to sugarcoat it - pretend that they've probably changed since then... Whatever. You can live in a fluffy "everyone is friends, everyone is nice, everyone likes me" world if you want to. Their intentions are less than noble (reclaiming Aztlan - an explicit goal of theirs, even if you refuse to acknowledge it), and anyone who wants to live in the real world can see it. BTW, I agree that the YCT is a radical group as well. I'd like to break that one up too. But that does nothing to lessen MEChA's activities. It's pointless to argue with someone who refuses to accept evidence from the horse's own mouth.
To be fair, MeChA did some disgusting and tacky things, but everything they did (that I ever heard about) was peaceful and legal. YCT took far-right but semi-mainstream positions when I was there, but they were more beligerent and pissy about it. Them duking it out in the Firing Line was absolutely hilarious. It made them both look like nutcase-fringe groups.
<b>treeman</b>: I'm not new. I made the reference to your "favorite," Pat Buchanan, because I read your post about politicos that you are embarassed to be associated with. It was meant tongue in cheek; I should have used a smiley-face I suppose or my meanings will become as obtuse as rimbaud's. I somewhat know your positions and admire and respect their diverseness and complexity as indicative of a true thinker.
Bylaws, guiding document, whatever, you are still talking about words that came about from a different historical time. It is pointless to argue with someone who believes the print about a group more so than actual interactions with people in the group or from knowledge of their current activities (I described many of them). Like I said I personally known have known many of them--yeah this is a stupid way to base my opinions--when I can absorb the views of someone whose starting point is AmyPatrol and who is dead set on making them come off as armed revolutionaries ready to attack White people, America, etc, BTW great reader, I never said they were "mainstream" or even that they are not radical or that they don’t have radical members (trace back if you will). Just because a group is radical doesn’t mean it is worth fearing or loathing over in my book. What they did on the Texas mall from Major's reply is radical, but it is also perfectly, and constitutionally, legit. My response to you was because you were going to great effort to paint their central function as attacking America, I was giving you (really more so to others who may read--I have no pretense on impacting your ironclad views) a larger context of what THEY ACTUALLY DO because Pat and AmyPatrol only presents what serves their ends. Whatever dude.
Oh great, now there is another one. I am so abused. Maybe this is an insult to you giddyup, but I understood your reference and tone. Oh, and to everyone: This thread hurt my wife's feelings. Bastards.
<b>rimbaud</b>: I'm not insulted. You're a smart guy. Let's see.. no disclaimer and no smiley-face: why did this thread hurt your wife's feelings? Bastards?! Don't you think you're generalizing?
<b>grizzled</b>: Did you check for smiley-faces and/or disclaimers? I did and couldn't find any. I figure his wife to be some kind of immigrant, I guess. Anybody know? Here's a new signature for rimbaud: "rimbaud-- too obtuse; he thinks you're Kreskin."
giddyup: My bad then. I'm not the most sensitive person in the world (just ask rimbaud ) My apologies... Desert Scar: 'Whatever' is about right. I don't think MEChA is about to pull an arsenal out of the bag and start shooting whitey. That's not their style. But I do think that their eventual goal is to "liberate Aztlan from the oppressors", and as I said in my first post to you on the subject, they'll do that through political, social, and economic means. They want the SW US to either break away from the US and form its own nation, or to cede to Mexico. They want whitey out of their parts, too (ethnic cleansing, just by nonviolent means). Those two items are crystal clear goals according to their own agenda. If you can't see that, then you are blind. I for one am not going to just passively sit back and let it happen. I am also not going to pick up a gun and try to prevent them from taking Texas, my home, and kicking me out... Unless they start shooting at me, of course. Instead, I am going to try to point out their doctrine for everyone to see, and let everyone else make up their minds on how benevolent organizations like this really are. That is all I'm doing here. If you choose to sugarcoat things and refuse to see the threat, fine. That is your choice. I am only trying to inform people here. Not many Americans know what MEChA is, and that is actually one of their main strengths - maintaining a low profile, and passing themselves off as a civil rights-oriented student activist group. Well, I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut and let it pass... I even refrained from posting more American Patrol links after you accused them of a right-wing slant (and they are certainly to the right, granted), and instead posted links to the direct source. It can't get any more unbiased than that. If you still refuse to see the problem with this organization - and denial appears to be your driving motivation, whether you realize it or not (trying to explain El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán as an "archaic bylaw", when it is the organization's guiding principles embodied) - then that is your choice. I simply hope that others will take the time to actually look at this organization and others like it, rather than blindly hope that they don't exist, or that they are benign in nature. But you're right, 'whatever'. This discussion is going nowhere.
Isn't it a mistake (and potentially a tragic one) to attribute good and noble intentions to every group... such as MEChA. The worst ones will have the most elaborate cover-up it would seem to me. Why isn't this group being put out of existence on treasonous grounds? Some of you want to stand by and lets these "young people find themselves." It seems clear to me that their agenda is anti-American (as well as all the other feel-good stuff) and needs to be stopped.
Treeman, relax. As far as Mecha goes, I have known a few. people who were in it during the 1960's. I was really surprised to see a mention of what is probably a virtually defunct group on this board. They're now professors, lawyers and other educated people rasising kids and trying to make a living. They go to little league soccer games. When all is said and done they're just like you and me. I guess they almost always vote for Democrats, if that is threatening. Relax. The United States is a powerful country. It has few if any really strong enemies. The US is not about to be overthrown, invaded or taken over in our life time or that of our kids by Iraq, terrorists, or small groups of whatever ethnicity or belief. If our grandchildren live in a world where the US is just one of ten or so very powerful nations, I'm sure that they will deal with it.
I don't know about that, glynch. Have you read prophecy regarding the fate of the United States? It suggests otherwise. But that's another thread probably.
Treeman, we clearly disagree on the degree Mecha is a threat to sovereignty and the US. If they are as radical as you say there are and really put there energy in forming a truly separate Atzlan state as described in the guiding document that organization will never get beyond a few radical intellectuals in a few universities IMO. That message DOES NOT appeal to the vast majority of recent or multi-generation Mexican Americans or to Mexican Nationals for that matter--there is zero reason to me to fear a large unified Mexican/Mexican American upheaval in this country because it is such a diverse group economically and culturally. I also don't think that is the appeal of an Atzlan State that leads most students to Mecha, rather it so more for social support and desire to work with an organization focus on their communities—and it is the latter that their investments and efforts principally go toward. Of course we disagree on this as well, but I believe the whole Atzlan thing is a symbolic holdover from the 60s when racism and exploitation was far more severe than anything today that truly doesn't guide there current activities. Personally, I never got the idea, I think it is born out of people searching for a simpler identity than is the reality--there is part Indians, part Spanish, part other Euro/ American influence. Further, before the Spanish and other Euro/Americans came to the current American SW it wasn't like their was a unified society to base any Atzlan on. The large unified pre-European peoples were down in what is now the Mexico City valley area or south, and they were excessively brutal as well as some positive aspects to those societies just like any other of those period. But people often want simpler and more gloried symbols to hold on to, this is just my take on that. Finally, it is obvious to me Mechas are not about being sneakily strategic in trying to overthrow the government or the US. If so they would not be posting their guiding documents for everyone to see nor would they be engaging in public protests. Mecha members do not hide behind masks or form secret societies (as far as I know). These are not ways to be below our government’s radar or hide from criticism from people like Buchanan or you or me. If anything I would bet the old guard of Mecha who wrote the guiding documents are disappointed the degree most Mecha people believe in working with the system and focus on building communities. But then times have changed and most people have changed with it, even if the documents and a few holders are not. After all, Argentina for instance has had almost word for word the same guiding document (Constitution) as America since the former was independent, yet in reality the political and economic systems histories havn’t had much in common. That is why I weigh other aspects of groups and systems (e.g., regular activities, climate/culture of group/organization/system) far more than any guiding document that supposedly set it in motion. Anyway, I am on to other topics.
