Severe Rockets Fan, truly hilarious, Please tell me you posted this as a put-on. This is from the bottom of my original post: Despite this, you come running in with: I think I'll let my previous answer stand from when I anticipated your question. BTW, in case you didn't notice, it didn't give PER ratings for 2002-2003....I guess you read my links about as closely as you read the initial post. It's slightly difficult to compare PER ratings between seasons, when you only have them for one season. What would you propose I do? Make up PER ratings for 02-03? Let me know...
Doesn't PER compare overall effectiveness VS. other PGs he's playing against? Are you using the 7% of the time he plays SG(usually against backups) to say it evens out somehow? Not sure. I guess its funny to you somehow...whats funny to me is that your 'sole intent' to use PPG to say Steve's Defense has improved yet when a team slows down the tempo and makes the other PGs shoot less, only a moron would think the PPG would go anywhere but down. But I guess you didn't draw that conclusion.
Charvo: from my series of posts in this thread, please pinpointl the exact post in which I said that Steve was a better shooter than Yao, that Steve was a more efficient offensive player than Yao, or that Yao's game against Theo Ratliff was indicative of his entire season. Then I can see what you are responding to, because I don't believe this is responsive, especially to my more recent posts about Steve's defense. Some of you steve bashers act so irrationally and reflexively when making your arguments, it's ridiculous. you just collectively label people and do stuff like this: 1. respond to arguments that are not being advanced (above), or 2. make silly arguments like Severe Rockets Fan that have already been addressed in the very posts that you are responding too. (without even bothering to have read them, apparently) The Rockets need an effective Steve Francis to be successful, the Rockets need an effective Yao Ming to be successful. Unbelievably enough, this is a Rockets fan site, and I am a fan of the Rockets, which includes all of their players. I guess that gives me blinders, I thought it was called being a sports fan. I hope you guys enjoyed the win last night.
Actually I made 3 points. You already addressed the first one (PER) but gave some lame excuse to say it doesn't matter. Then you refused to acknowledge the other 2...probably because you couldn't. Typical Steve Riders, "Oh oh, I found 1 misleading fact that showed how steve is improving, everyone else is blind!" You're such a voice of reason.
Yes, if you weight the average of the two it comes out very close to zero. As you notice, the 10% he plays two, his net per is extremely high, while his pg net per is very close to zero. Again, PER measures overall effectiveness, not defense like I was specifcally referring to, which I have spelled out for you numerious times, prior to even you asking the question. But anyway, if you're unhappy with my measure, go back and check out eFG%, you'll find that Steve's opponents are down there too. Can't write that one off to slower tempo, can you bro? Why do you guys keep making asses of yourselves about this? Francis is playing better D this year than last year. Period. That's the only point I was trying to make. I have offered tons of evidence indicating that he is, you have not offered anything in return, except for PER numbers (for which there is no ability to compare to the prior year and which measure both offense and defense) Yes, I agree, his offense is worse, but that doesn't change what I was trying to say. PS, I'm still waiting for those 02-03 PER numbers. Can you link them for me?
Sam man when you actually use facts to argue it's all fine, but HALF of EVERY post of yours is stuff like this labelling and attacking other people. I can't watch rockets games so I'm just neutral on all this but it's not cool to write these stuff EVERY time you post. All I see is other people saying Steve sucks they never say 'Samfisher make silly arguments' or 'samfisher plant his eyes on xxxx' 'Samfisher b**** and moan'. etc And just for the record, Charvo is saying Yao is better to counter your question why people don't b**** Yao in the firt hawk's game.
His net per is very close to zero without that 10% SG stat, I guess thats how max players are suppose to perform heh sam? So defense has nothing to do with overall effectiveness, I thought it was a comparsion of the two my bad. Also you had only 'spelled it out' once and I didn't see it, my bad. eFG% is .6% lower this year than last...HUGE difference, that MUST mean steve is a better defender. Sorry Sam, don't have them, I guess you'll just have to accept that Steve isn't very effective overall this year and forget about last...my bad bro. You know what hilarious, you talk about us making an ass of ourselves when you're the one trying to say how much Steve has improved on D when the difference is so negligable(.6% LOL) compared to last year... and last year his D sucked! Way to go sam, you really proved us wrong...
Fine and dandy max. I agree that I may use some insults on occassion, but look at my posts in this thread: they are all sourced to the factual record. I try to make that exceedingly clear. When did you ever see me throw up a two line post that says something like: " Yao ming sucks because he is just not good, and because he messes up too much?" Hopefully never. I try not to make kneejerk reactions like that. Also please note, I receive many, many insults from Stevebashers being accused of loving Steve and hating yao, in fact, look at the game thread, people accused me of being a racist for using the term YOF to describe silliness that was being thrown about by Yetti. Who's being ad hominem now? You know what the problem is that I have more than with them bashing me? People coming onto a Rockets fans messsage board and relentlessy bashing our players, win lose or draw, regardless of what the facts may show. It's almost absurd beyond belief that half of the threads on this board, after a win, no doubt, are all about how the teams second best player sucks. Lighten up people.
I'm not going to bother recounting all of your backtracking and the number of different kinds of arguments that you tried and failed to advance, as I think the record speaks for itself, but if your position is that Steve has not improved on defense from last year to this year, then yes, I certainly did. This whole little pissing match started when "YaoMing" said "I challenge you to find ONE sign of improvement". I did. What more do you want? Now you tell you me something: Does it make you mad when Steve plays well?
Factual record? So you're so adamant about letting all us steve bashers know how much(little) his D has improved, why don't you tell us about his offense lately, since you are so factually straight? Enlighten us steve bashers sam, tell us how much he's improved over the years and how all of us are delusional in the asumption that he's not a fit for this team. I'm really curious how you rationalize Steve's play as it pertains to this team and its 'quest' for a championship. How do you see his 40% fg and HORRIBLE assist/TO ratio as championship material. Tell me sam, I really want to know.
No, you don't. You don't give a crap. Obviously, you have made up your mind already, you hate SF, he has a low bball IQ, blah, blah, blah, blah, why should I even bother? Tell me, SRF, I really want to know. Did I ever say that SF was having a great season? No, as I said before, people tried to advance the argument has not made "ONE" improvement from last year to this. This argument is false, and disingenuous. I rebutted that argument. That's all I did, that's all I meant to do. You guys caricatured me into somebody who trying to defend SF in every facet of his game and who hates Yao and blah blah blah. That's simply not true, at all.
My backtracking? Pathetic. You're the one that took 1 tiny(.6%) fact and blew it out of proportion as IMPROVEMENT. PPG is a HORRIBLE indicator of improved defense especially with the fewer shots the opponent PGs are getting...I mean, damn, by that rationale, Allen Iverson is the best player in the league because he simply scores more points even though he takes 30 shots to do it. Its the same rationale you're using only you're doing it on the defensive end. Its a pitty because you seem like a smart chap. Oh, and I love it when Steve plays well, always have...he just doesn't do it enough to warrant a place on a championship team, which is what I thought all Rockets fans wanted...I guess you don't fit that description...
Well, actually by your own admission, I didn't take "1 tiny [] fact", if I used PPG and eFG%, I took 2 facts, didn't I? Also, you may have noted the anectdotal evidence I pointed out earlier in the thread. But let's just make things clear: Is it your position that Francis not playing better on defense this year? Yes or no? And if the answer is no, please point to some evidence which would indicate that this is true? Good. But let me riddle you this, when he plays well, do you start a thread or throw in a bunch of posts saying how well he played?
You caricatured yourself by printing this ridiculous stat to show how MUCH steve has improved on D. Personally I think he has improved "slightly", really I do, but he STILL sucks! Hell, if you buy a new headliner for an old broken down 80's oldsmobile...ITS STILL AN OLD BROKEN DOWN 80's OLSMOBILE, only it has a new headliner...big whoop! And that's STeve's D...who cares if he's 'slightly' improved, he still sucks on D. Oh, but we're making asses of ourselves. whatever man.
Compared to who? Who is a better defender? I don't have the time to run it, but check the eFG% and PPG for other PG's in the west and see how it comes out. I don't know how it would come out but I would like to see.
I've complimented STeve PLENTY of times. I'll find the posts and show you...actually find them yourself, I've wasted too much time here already. I've watched STeve on the Rox from day 1 and supported him every year with authority...you just don't know Sam, I've fought with So many trolls from Gettinbranded to BTM about Steve, I'd stand up for him any time anywhere. But after 5 years and no improvement(negligable) hell, he's actually regressed, it's obvious that STeve isn't the player I thought he was and its sad. He needs to be gone, period. Its so clear to me and I can't see how ANYONE who's actually seen EVERYONE of steves games can't agree. I just can't. Hell, everyone outside of steve-lover fans on this bbs can tell you how overrated steve is and how he's not a good fit for this team...why can't you?
I don't think that's true, most fans tend to think the opposite; Wasn't he voted the most popular athletet in Houston and the starter in the ASG? I don't see the problems that you foresee. I see a young team that is good and is getting better. We have a much better team than we have had in years, and it shows in the record, and we will make the playoffs finally. Being a rockets fan, I probably have a natural tendency to accentuate the positive with the team....that's what sports is about for me. There's enough stuff to be miserable about and unsatisfied with in real life. The Rockets are better than they have been in recent years, by alot I believe. I'm happy with that.
