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I'm okay with Amen coming off the bench as long as JG is playing well

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OremLK, Jan 10, 2025.

  1. javal_lon

    javal_lon Member

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    IMO, Amen can make a winning impact whether he plays 25 off the bench or 35 minutes as a starter.. No need to rush him. Bari has his role , and at least for now, it's to look like he had the ability to stretch the court and play sound defense .. He's built to thrive in it... As he adds muscle, we'll see some 20/10 games with some big clutch shots.. I don't think you just put that on the bench just yet.. Especially if Amen can still do what does with his minutes any damn way..
     
  2. Swapshop

    Swapshop Member

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    Not exactly. I will say he is infinitely closer to being that guy than Jalen is though. People get enamored with the fact Jalen can have some good games and for some reason don't realize his inconsistencies. Also you compound that with the fact he has a weak mental state and semi low basketball IQ all though Ime has helped him improve a little but its not a natural talent.
     
  3. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Do you know they have the same scoring efficiency?
     
  4. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    Advanced stats have him as the best defender in the paint and on the perimeter. Capping him at Igoudala is just as presumptious as capping him at Magic Johnson. One is more optimistic but not hyperbolic. He has only played about 100 games and way less as a starter. Your presumptions are not any more realistic than anyone else's. None of us can predict the future especially for a 22 year old player that hasn't even started 40 games in his career. i'm predicting superstardom and a top 10 player in the league as soon as next year if given the chance to start. You are predicting something less than that. Neither one is more realistic than the other. It's just your opinion, which you are assuming is more important.
     
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  5. Air Canada

    Air Canada Member

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    Russ had a better shot in all aspects and had more PG experience because he had more PG skills as a ball handler and playmaker. The reason Amen hasn't been the lead guard or primary facilitator as he was drafted to be isn't because of FVV... It's because Amen doesn't have the handle to be a primary ball handler... He hasn't even been the backup PG either season for that very reason and it's abundantly clear if you watch him enough with the ball in halfcourt situations... He's not playing out of position... He's playing in the position in which he most excels.

    I don't see him having that scoring and playmaking combination on average for a large sample size because of his offensive limitations.... Barring the assists you're talking about a Shawn Marion level player.... That's not a superstar... He isn't a player that has shown any likely outlook that he can excel as a self creating scorer in the halfcourt.... He's a play finisher, cutter, and transition driver who largely benefits off the creation of those around him or 2nd chance points.

    Lol I usually use Kawhi in these discussions...
    Kawhi developed tf out of his draft ceiling... he had decent dribbling skill as a rookie to begin with and still today he has fairly average handles at best..... Kawhi has never been a primary ball handler... He gets by cuz he's a bucket getter and a three level scorer that doesn't need much of a handle to score effectively or get his shot off... He can score in the post and out of the triple threat.

    No none of those guys made significant improvements in their handles as pros which is what would need to happen with Amen... very marginal improvements... Jaylen, Kawhi, and Jimmy are all fairly average ball handlers and they started as such... Jaylen still doesn't have much of a left hand when dribbling, but he's just been cognisant to use it less... Jimmy is slightly better than the other two.. they just tightened their handles up some over the years and they improved their footwork more than anything... Kawhi and Jimmy largely don't need much of a handle to be effective in the halfcourt because of their post games and proficiency in the midrange as scorers/shot creators.... They're able to leverage their scoring there to create for others.
    Idk why Brunson is even mentioned here... He had a solid handle... And he essentially has the same handle he had as a guard to begin with coming out of Villanova... He just wasn't the lead guard on the Mavs because of Luka, but he had plenty of moments where he showed that capability in Dallas.

    This improvement in his shot from last year is extremely overstated ... He improved from historically bad to just really bad.... And any conclusions that can be drawn are from a very small sample size... Basically 1 3pters and 1 middy per game on bad efficiency.
     
  6. Air Canada

    Air Canada Member

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    I definitely think he has an argument as the best perimeter defender, but there's no argument for him as the best defender in the paint.... The advanced stats and the overall stats don't support that either so idk what you're talking about there.

    Saying he's a half ass jumper from being one of the best players in the history of the game is absolutely hyperbolic... Saying his ceiling is Iggy 2.0 is a reasonable outcome he's likely capable of reaching... And what is more likely is inherently more realistic.

    Superstardom and a top 10 player in the league if given the chance to start is wishful thinking at best... There is no basis or precedent for a player of his size and skill set having that outcome in history.... There is no superstar or player in the top 10 that struggles to create their own offense at an elite level... Amen has shown zero proficiency to be that.
     
  7. Buck Turgidson

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    Kevin McHale
    Jamal Crawford
    Ricky Pierce
    John Havlicek
    Toni Kukoc
    Michael Cooper
    Lamar Odom
    Eddie Johnson
    Bobby Jones
    Anthony Mason
    Detlef Shrimpf
    etc....
     
  8. Houston77

    Houston77 COOKIES AND CAKE, MY TEAM BAKED!
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    Amen’s ceiling is way higher than most of these guys, and the couple decent comparisons (from a ceiling standpoint) like McHale and Havlicek started a ton of games in their careers.
     
  9. MystikArkitect

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    Weird posts. You say that Amen improving his shot from. 13% to 26% is insignificant and that his 37% from mid range is insignificant when it isn't. He's in his 2nd year and doubled his percentage. The fact that it's on low volume is probably better due to the fact that it shows that he knows what he's strong at and what still needs work. He's improved dramatically with the ball this year as well. Takes guys off the dribble all the time and has some gnarly finishes at the rim regardless of the defender. Last year he was essentially Derrick Lively on offense. This year he's much more varied. Iguodala is a low comp. Iggy wasn't anywhere near the athlete Amen is and wasn't the defender, rebounder or passer either....like they're not even in the same stratosphere. Amen is like a maxed out Marion/Iguodala. I'm not sure what that comp is and the closest I can get to is Anfernee Hardaway with elite defense or....other names that start getting into Top 50 player all time territory.

    Saying Amen is Iggy 2.0 is like saying Wemby is French Porzingis.
     
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  10. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    Magic Johnson was a poor outside shooter for years. He made his living running in transition and getting into the lane. Amen is shooting well in the lane and has also shown an ability to get to the rim almost at will in the half-court even without a supporting cast like Magic had. Amen is a better defensive player and rebounder than Magic. Magic was a great passer. We don't really know yet on Amen, because he hasn't been given the keys. If you can't see the improvement in Amen's shooting form from last year to this year, it's because you don't want to see it.

    Jason Kidd was a lousy shooter for years. Derrick Rose was a poor 3-pt shooter. CP3 wasn't a great 3 pt shooter for many years. Michael Jordan never became a good 3-pt shooter. There are a ton of other hall of famers that were poor outside shooters that didn't have anywhere near the other skills that Amen has. Many of those players were top 5 in their eras.

    Shot blocking is not the only skill that defines a post defender. I'm too lazy to find the graphic posted in the Garm that showed the best perimeter defenders and best post defenders (one on one) in the league. It was posted a couple of weeks ago from statmuse, I believe. Amen was no. 1 in both categories and Wemby was not listed in either (top ten only). If Wemby is better at post defending so be it. The fact that Amen is even in the conversation with him in that regard is astounding.

    In the last 3 games when Amen was starting he averaged 18 pts 12.7 rebounds and 4 assists with 61% fg%. Igoudala's best year by each stat was 19.9 pts, 6.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 6.5 rebounds. Best fg% was 52.8%. It is a ridiculously small sample size for Amen. I'll argue again with you after this season, when at least we will have at least 30 or 40 games of Amen starting in his year 22 season. The cap of Amen at Andre is beyond ridiculous.
     
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  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    All those guys for their respective era had guard level handles.

    Amen has a high ceiling but Derrick Rose wasn't leaving the ball behind him when trying to do a dribble move when pressed by a defender.

    The Iggy/Marion comps are purely because he doesn't have guard level handles. Can he develop them. Sure. But the guys that are being mentioned here like Penny and Rose had guard level handles the day they stepped in to the league.
     
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  12. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    This is true. Jalen also gets knocked off the ball a lot and he has had 3 1/3 years of high usage on ball. Amen is improving his handles with much less opportunity to practice them since he has spent most of his short career in the dunkers spot. I think people will be surprised at what a non-issue this becomes as he becomes a primary ball handler. How long that takes, really depends on if Ime has really turned the corner on how he uses FVV. It's amazing how easily both Amen and Jalen are getting to the hoop even with our horrible outside shooting.
     
  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    The thing is Jalen had guard level handles entering the league... He didn't forgot the ball behind him when doing a dribble move. Sure compare ld to Amen he didn't have the strength he did so he got turnovers from being bumped hard occasionally but that isn't due to non guard level handles.

    Amen has a longer road to get to to get to competent guard level handles.

    I'm just explaining why people are giving Iggy and Marion comps. It doesn't mean he has to be that level of player. Its more archetype. Maybe he will be the best version of that archetype the league has ever seen and will make him a top 10 player in the league. I can see that within Amen's abilities because I don't think either Marion or Iggy has the same level of quick twitch lateral ability those other guys before him had.

    Amen might not have guard level handles. But he has elite guard level shiftiness and agility. That is what makes him special imo
     
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  14. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Amen has a much higher ceiling than Iggy lol. For all intents and purposes Amen is a slim and basketball obsessed, guard version of Zion.
     
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  15. OkayAyeReloaded

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    Amen is a unique talent who can play and guard 1-4, he’s been slotted at SG, SF and PF. By that logic he wouldn’t play SG because he can’t shoot. He’s a positionless player who has brought the ball up the floor and initiated offense at times, as he did the games Fred was injured. We have FVV, Jalen, and other guys like Holiday and Reed who can’t play anything else besides guard who absorb minutes, Amen can be effective anywhere needed.

    Giannis, who was very raw as a rookie, is slotted at forward the majority of his career but developed effectively into a point guard initiating offense and later point forward by Jason Kidd as his coach in year three, the positions are semantics in this era.

    As an example here he had a triple double, 18 pts 11 rebs, and 10 assists with a 3 to 1 assist turnover ratio in this game when FVV was out as the lead playmaking guard. Yes, he can develop those skills at the NBA level. Shawn Marion’s career high in assists was 8, Amen is a far better passer at 22, I wouldn’t compare them in that area.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202404140LAC.html

    [​IMG]

    Shawn Marion never surpassed over three assists a game his entire career, Amen is averaging that as a starter at forward and his advanced Assist percentages are higher than Shawn’s entire full-time career as well. 20+ points 10+ rebounds and 6-7+ assists plus all NBA defense is a superstar imo. We can agree to disagree here.

    He's definitely shown the ability to create his own shot, we just have older, high contract, established players who anchor the offense, like Sengun etc. This is film from him as a rookie creating his own offense in isolation, he's improving half way through his sophomore year in the NBA and will continue.



    Here's film of him passing/playmaking mostly as a rookie and creating wide-open shots but other players missing the looks, these would be assists if his team completed the plays.



    This is your subjective opinion and feelings; and you have a right to them. But the objective numbers say differently. All those players became all-stars or superstars with their handles. Many of those guys greatly improved their assist numbers, assist/turnover ratio and usage as lead players initiating offense in usage percentage and other metrics you can use to measure handle effectiveness from young players to now. Even film, young versions of these players weren’t handling the ball as often or effectively as older versions. Yes, young players can improve their handle to become stars

    Sorry, any rookie player jumping a full percentage point in shooting at the NBA level and albeit small, slightly increasing their volume as well is a significant sign they can improve. Again, this is your opinion and feelings, the objective numbers show improvement. We can agree to disagree
     
    #95 OkayAyeReloaded, Jan 12, 2025
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2025
  16. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    I think that's a pretty good assessment. I'm not as down on his handles as you are, but he certainly has a ways to go. I think Amen and Jalen pushing the pace and getting us into the half court more quickly is transforming our offensive capabilities much faster than even I expected. I anxious to see what other teams do to adjust and how Ime and the players respond. I am fearful that Ime's instinct is to play JVG basketball and he will revert to that as soon as we have a bump in the road.
     
  17. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

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    Jalen and Amen both need to start. Someone else can come off the bench
     
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  18. OkayAyeReloaded

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    And again, I think some people get threatened their player will lose shine if another succeeds. All three of these guys just beat top-seeded Memphis as a team. Jalen, Amen, and Sengun can all start and be stars, help make each other better and win. No need to try to tear another Rocket down or reduce thier role to build yours up. The goal is to win a championship long-term.
     
  19. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member
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    Absolutely correct. Add Jabari to that list.
     
  20. Air Canada

    Air Canada Member

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    The volume is literally what makes it insignificant because it's bad and the sample size so small that you can't assess any real notable improvement.... From 14% to 24% on 0.9 attempts to 1.3 attempts.

    14/45 from midrange his rookie year.
    17/45 so far from midrange this season.

    This is absolutely not significant... That should be obvious... We can't even determine how much was just more attempts vs him being that bad his rookie year.

    He hasn't dramatically improved with the ball...
    He showed this ability in the second half of last season when he got more run... It's more opportunities... He had a mediocre handle as a rookie and he has a mediocre handle now, but isn't as much an issue in transition where he's a great driver cuz of his speed and strength to finish through contact... He scores most of his points as a beneficiary on offense... Cuts, putbacks, feeds to the dunker spot and in transition.

    Iggy wasn't the rebounder he is, but he absolutely was the defender and definitely a better passer(not just going off assist numbers).... I do agree with a hybrid Iggy/Marion... That's why I say Iggy 2.0... he's a worse shooter than them both... A worse playmaker than Iggy... And a worse rim protector than Marion.... I do think he has potential to be a better playmaker than Iggy, but he hasn't shown that yet. Anfernee Hardaway makes no sense since he's a bad shooter that isn't proficient at creating his own shot.
     

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