What people forget when talking about the hype was that 2 of the 3 were considered projects. Bush was Bush and people ignored his negatives. But for Vince, most people didn't even think he would start during his first year in the NFL. He was the one most people talked about as having a long learning curve. While his regression from Yr 1 is disappointing, it's mostly because Yr 1 was above expectations. He's trying to become a pocket passer now and that will take time - if it ever happens. I suspect if they make the playoffs (and I think Cleveland will, plus either Jax or Ten), he'll run more and look better. We'll see. On Mario, he was considered a physical specimen, but people felt like he didn't have a fantastic career because he was still learning the little things about playing DE. So it should also not be particularly surprising that he's still not there. DE's should learn faster than QBs, so that's disappointing, but its way too early to call either of these guys a bust.
I meant fantastic college career - he was more of a combine guy than a "look how great he was at NCState" guy.
Judging from this season. Let's not forget that both Bush and VY had pretty good rookie seasons so whether they were worthy isn't really in doubt IMO. I think if you go back and re-draft, they still would have gone in the Top 3. Like Major posted, Mario was a combine guy. His 14 Sacks in his final college season was impressive, but many of them came in a select number of games and there were questions about his motor. We definitely now see what they were talking about. Mario will have a good game/play and then completely disappear. Definitely not what I want to see from our #1 overall.
In terms of numbers Mario Williams at NC State = Julius Peppers at North Carolina. Statistically he was very productive in college. People talk about the physical because in that respect Williams is freakish, while in terms of production he was "only" exceptional.
What's even more amazing is that in this season, neither of those is even true. Bush's 5.5 yards per reception is pathetic... and Vince's 217 rushing yards on 3.9 yards per carry is even worse. Like everyone else, I'm not saying Mario has lit up the scoreboard. However, I'm tired of all the simpletons pointing to that decision every time anything goes wrong with this franchise. All three players have been mediocre at best.
Yes, but much of that was during a 4 game period. Obviously, it all totals out, but before the combine, no one thought of Mario Williams in the same context as Julius Peppers. Mario Williams got his 14 sacks or whatever as a regular member of the line. Peppers got his despite being the focus of every defense, double-teamed all the time, etc. Williams went from good player to top-3 pick during the combine - that's all I was referencing. It wasn't his college season that made people go "wow".
This is certainly not an important test...but it was interesting to me that I had never heard of Mario Williams before the combines. Not at all. It was the first time I could remember where a guy went #1, and I hadn't heard of him...and that was more remarkable to me because it was my team picking #1, so I was following it more closely than I might otherwise. Peppers on the other hand was someone that I knew about a long time before the draft. I knew of him from his play on the field. Again...none of that means anything really signficant...but it certainly affected my perception as we headed towards draft day.
i agree with every single word of your post, save this: therein lies the big ol' fallacy that is mister vince young, esq. he's "regressed"? he was terrible last year! he finished 29th in YPA; 30th in QB rating; 32nd in COM%; and threw more INTs (13) than TDs (12). that is a BAD qb, i don't care how many ways you try and spin it with "he just wins" mumbo jumbo bull**** (you = people at large, not you, specifically, major). it's not like he was a middle-of-the pack-QB in '06; he was among the worse, statistically-speaking. so he's pretty much been on par, passing-wise. he's obviously regressed as a runner, but duh. why would any team give him lanes when they know he can't complete a pass over 4 yards to save his life?
Most of his sacks came in 7 games not 4, but 14.5 sacks in 7 games don't make you go “wow”? And other teams did game plan around Mario. You can find plenty of quotes by teammates to that effect. The difference was the one that Max noted. North Carolina = nationally ranked with Peppers, NC State = 7-5 with Williams. I don't think you can blame the faults of the team as a whole on Williams.
I'm not defending the Mario Williams pick.... but i am just hating on vince . . again Rocket River just wanted to complete the sentence
Vince just wins. The Tennessee defense came down to earth this Sunday. Oh, and the Titans got their asses handed to them at home by a suprising Jacksonville squad. So, perhaps the Tennessee defense just wins?
Nobody should have been surprised about Jacksonville. They control the line of scrimmage like no one else. When they get their quarterback back, they'll go right back to being a top 5 team.
But the problem here is that the running is by choice. He said it before the season and multiple times this season that he wants to be a "Quarterback", not a "running quarterback". That's fine in the long-run, but if you watch his games this year, it's clear he's choosing not to run unless he absolutely has to. There were several times in the game a week ago (not Jax, but the previous one), where he had 15 yards of clear space in front of him and he launched 30 yard incomplete (or intercepted) passes. It's not necessarily a bad thing in the long-run, but for this year, it's made him a much worse player. The lanes thing would make sense except for the fact that everyone knew he could run towards the end of last year and he still managed to run on teams just fine. What he doesn't seem to recognize is that his throwing is predicated on his threat as a runner. On the throwing side, he has regressed, though some of it is his receivers. Watching him, his accuracy has declined a bit this year. He and his receivers are also constantly on the wrong page. They'll drop a lot of balls, and then at least 4 or 5 times a game, they'll run a completely different direction from where Vince throws. Whether Vince is throwing to the wrong place or the receivers are running the wrong routes, who knows. But it's by far the worst receiving group in the entire league. I won't get into the whole leadership argument again, but he is a worse QB this year for the simple reason that when he's given opportunities late in games to make big plays, he's not doing it - whether running or passing. Last year, he might struggle through most of the game, but if the game was close at the end, he made almost every necessary play. This year - granted, he hasn't had to very much since they've won a lot without him - he hasn't done that when given the chance.
Wasn't all of NCState's D-Line w/ Mario Williams drafted? UNC came and played at UT his last year in college (and OU). He was the focus of the game the entire week before - he was their "star" on defense. If I remember right, he was actually held to 0 tackles, 0 sacks, etc, but I'm not positive. But regardless of anyone else on the team, Julius Peppers from day #1 that season was the guy people talked about focusing on. He was the player UT focused on double teaming, etc.
just one; a LB was also taken in round 1. is your point that mario williams wasn't accorded the same respect? major, not to be terribly snarky, but how many players can you name that teams are focusing on from week to week that aren't either your alma mater or in close proximity to your home? for instance, i doubt you'd ever heard of juice williams prior to saturday, but that doesn't mean OSU wasn't focused on him all week prior.
