Illegal immigrant runs for student body president at Texas A&M

Sure, and you think prostitution is a crime? Reprehensible as much as say a battery or slander？

 

The level of criminality is not the question.
Should it NOT be enforced?

Rocket River

 

Here is a news for you ... infidelity, ie extra marital affairs, is illegal in many states, and yet never enforced in this day and age. I can go on and on. Look you have a very simplicity idea about law and its enforcement.

 

He's illegal. Ship his ass back.

 

Sorry brah, I'm going to stop you there as I've explained in this thread why that's not going to happen and why the term illegal is relatively bereft of meaning. All there is to talk about is why people think he should be shipped back or why he should stay.

 

We're a nation of laws, not people. Deserves has nothing to do with it. He's an adult, he's aware that by being here he is breaking federal law. Talking about whether he's a "criminal" or whatever and what illegals and their lawyers and activists prefer to be called is a pointless exercise. He's breaking the law and it's not some arcane outdated law. It's the same type of law that I would guess every civilized nation on Earth employs. If he wants to become a citizen and live here legally there's a mechanism for that to happen. Other people follow the rules and people who don't follow them shouldn't get a pass. Is the process great? Probably not. Could it use improvement? Of course. Is the US government asking for this problem by not protecting the border better? Sure. At the end of the day though he's still here illegally and he's not special just because he has a sad story that gets in the press. Lots of people have sad stories that you never hear about and they're no less deserving of an opportunity than this kid.

 

yes, you did from a field perspective, but people are predetermined not to listen. The immigration law imo is so arbitrary with rules as complicated as tax codes, prone to abuse. Often times, you cant tell why a so called legal alien should get documented to stay. I dont even know what legality means in immgration law.

 

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I'll bite, so let's go once more into the breach. Laws are selectively enforced, we choose not to enforce certain laws, by not bringing action, by not arresting, and by not charging. Moreover, these laws which you seem to hold as fetish, their content and their scope, are based on idea of what is inherently right and what is wrong, or what we as a nation think is simply good policy. But in the end, the laws only really matter to the extent that they are actually enforced. Sometimes laws are written in such a draconian manner that those who enforce the laws employ selective enforcement - they employ this selective enforcement based on criteria which they think provide the underpinnings of the law in question. Other times laws are written to be so over-inclusive that they cannot be enforced against all who break them - in that situation, law enforcement will again have to use its discretion and prioritize enforcement in the manner that they think is most beneficial.

So what all this means in the immigration context is that the government chooses not to deport people like this guy, even though he is indeed here illegally.

There are a couple of reasons that I explained earlier:

So? If you have ever disobeyed a traffic law, or smoked mar1juana, or drank with a BAC over .08, then you have broken the law. At least if you were to apply the your own simple understanding of the law to your own actions. You might be a saint for all I know, and if you are, then I apologize in advance for the following comment: You are a law-breaker and likely a criminal. You should face the consequences for every law you have broken. I mean, after all, you are quite likely an adult and "We're a nation of laws, not people" - CometsWin.

Its a very pointed exercise, because you and people like you keep insisting that he is illegal and breaking the law. I addressed this issue in an earlier post:

False (hey it's my username), for people like him, there is likely no mechanism. This is a common misconception, and I imagine when you understand that it is wrong, you will change your mind, right? I explained his opportunities for getting on the road to status in my first post in this thread. I'll quote it again for your convenience:

He doesn't get a free pass. Once again I already addressed this and once again for your convenience and to save me the effort of re-typing, I'll just quote myself:

Yes, as you have said a couple of times now, at the end of the day he is here illegally - bravo, repetition is oft used to add emphasis. He's here illegally what that means is that he does not receive the same benefits as those who have come through legal channels. He is here studying, but likely can't find work using his degree because he lacks work authorization, additionally he lives knowing that one-slip up and he will be deported, and unless things change he will never be able to vote, or hold a job legally. However, you are wrong in saying he isn't special. He obviously is, he's able to navigate his way through life despite all the barriers to his success. He's also likely broken fewer laws that the average person; in fact, he likely does his best to avoid committing even minor traffic violations even when he knows that no one is looking - it's just not worth the risk. He also likely doesn't party in school like most American college students wasting his college education, as anything he could do which could bring him to the attention of ICE and he could be at risk of deportation. He is also special in that the US government believes he is not one of their priorities for removal.

 

No he didn't, you said it better. I mean, at least in absolute terms. You made a real effort to tackle and think about a complex issue. While he, on the other hand, basically said "what part of illegal do you not understand" and "the law is the law" a couple of times.

 

At the of the day, you guys gotta ask yourself why this country has an immigration policy. If you dont think a kid living on the street in Hondorous at age of 14 Deserves a chance in the so called greatest country on earth with proud Christian traditions after 10 Year edurance of constant fear being deprived of thar chance, which ought to amount to the type of hardship every judge in the common law system should except, and brush it off as just another sad story, you ought to take a long look at yourself ask where your conscience and compassion are.

 

But . . .at the end of the day . . I will assume you do pay your taxes
no matter how complicated. . . .

Rocket River

 

in a world of finite resources we have to have priorities,

In a Country with finite resources. . . . do you think the priority should be the citizens of the country before citizens of another country.
This would be like me breaking into your house and then sitting at your table expecting you to feed me along with the rest of your family.
Then telling you it is unfair for you to not feed me cause you feeding you family and I am just as much a human being as they are. I have a nice sad story for you so you should feed me and them too. Even If I don't cause no trouble . . even wash dishes and a few things around the house. . . I am still an extra expense to you and your family. I am still an uninvited guest.

Does that make sense?

Are you serious? You think we should have no policy? Free Flowing population?
Imagine that . . .everyone can come in . . but no other country in the world
will let us in without going through THEIR IMMIGRATION POLICY

being the ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD without and immigration policy
That would be rather. . .interesting and dangerous

overpopulation of our particular area of the world would be a start.



Rocket River

 

To play devil's advocate, he is receiving in-state tuition and if he has a need for emergency health care, that would also be covered by taxpayer money. Also, if ultimately he can't get employment here because of his immigration status, how does it benefit our country for him to stay here? It sounds like he will have to either marry a citizen as you pointed out or live a life of always looking over his shoulder and finding employment in an illegal manner. I'm all for bringing in motivated intellectuals, but circumventing the laws in these special circumstances does seem like a slap in the face to those who have been waiting in line and following the appropriate procedure to be a citizen of this incredible land of opportunity.

 

First off, if you are going to play Devil's Advocate, you better bring something new to the table. Second, I guess you got me, he is receiving these benefits and they are probably not an exhaustive list. However, it is incorrect to say that he gets all the same benefits as a citizen, or those who come here through legal channels.

I'll just let his record speak for himself - given that he is in the position where he can run for student body president of A&M, and makes the news and sparks a dialogue, it is likely that he is adding something to this country and the education of other students going to A&M. I think it's your burden to show that he isn't. I'll ask, why do you think he isn't adding anything to this country?

How does anyone who is not currently employed add to this country? How does a student add anything to this country? How about someone who is unemployable? This guy can get a job, but it would likely be in either the food service industry, in the agricultural industry, or working for some fly-by-night contractor in construction. It's true that he might not be able to add all that he could possibly add to this country because of his status, but that doesn't mean he doesn't add anything. All it really says is that there is something wrong with our immigration system.

Just because our immigration laws exist in the current form does not make them right. One simple legislative change, such as allowing for those who have accrued unlawful presence to adjust in country or apply for a waiver so that they could leave the country and apply and not be barred would be all that's needed to give this guy and others in his unfortunate position the ability to get a job. Some of these changes have already been thrown around in the dialogue around comprehensive immigration reform.

This is a silly argument for two reasons. One because he isn't circumventing them, he is getting screwed by a system of laws that makes no sense, and second because it's a silly argument period:

If that's not enough for you to abandon the "slap in the face" argument, then here's a question that I want to ask you - presuming you have never broken a law of any sort, even traffic, do you feel like you have been figuratively struck in the face by people who speed, but aren't caught, or those who speed at 120, but have only gotten a 150 dollar ticket and not some larger amount? How about people who have been caught selling weed, but get off with some lesser charge, like possession? How about someone who gravely injures someone intentionally with a weapon, but pleads out to simple assault? In all of these examples, someone is not being punished to the fullest extent of the law, but I can't imagine you give much thought to those circumstances, because really you can't care less. If you are at all feel slapped in the face by any of those situations, it's anything more than a light touch, maybe a pat with an open hand on the cheek.

 

As you have pointed out yourself, it's not so much selective enforcement as it is a prioritization of how the resources can be used most efficiently. Violent offenders and people with criminal records should obviously have a higher focus in deportation than young college students. This is just common sense not some evil ploy to selectively enforce immigration law.

As a society we determine that certain laws carry certain penalties and we all make a determination when we break a law whether the risk/reward is worth breaking that law. I speed from time to time because the odds of my getting caught and the penalties in the case I do get caught are not severe enough to dissuade me from the benefits of breaking that law. If you want to change the penalty for speeding to the death penalty then I probably won't speed so much. I take full responsibility for breaking the law and when I'm caught there is a consequence to that. This guy is very publicly breaking the law and there is no consequence to that for him. You trying to cast all law breakers as "criminals" only seeks to devalue the importance of his illegal status in this country. The truth is that people that are here illegally frequently have to break other laws to continue to live here simply because they are already illegally here... document fraud, identify theft, employment laws etc. At no time when I sped in my car did it ever lead to the breaking of other laws that have detriment to the society at large. You want to minimize this effect that illegals have here but it's real and there is a cost to it. Of course you can say that illegals bring a benefit to our society but that same benefit exists with legal immigrants.

There is no doubt by anyone that he came here illegally is there? He was not a citizen when he came here and didn't have permission to come here. Confessed murderers are also considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, so what?

If he's screwed then he's screwed as a consequence of his own action. Felons can't vote, consequence. You break the law and there's a consequence to that. That's life.

He's commiting a crime without any threat of consequence. He's very publicly touting the fact that he's here illegally. That's getting a free pass. Do you think if I publicly touted the fact that I was cheating on my taxes that I wouldn't face a legal consequence for that? You're saying he's not getting a free pass because he doesn't have the benefits of being a citizen? Seriously?

We can't run a country based on who gets the most press. We all have to be equal before the law.

I appreciate your passion on the matter. I am latino so I'm sympathetic to the situation but this a total mess and it needs to be cleaned up. We have to remove the incentive to illegal immigration and we have to improve the process for legal immigration. We can't have a bunch of undocumented foreigners roaming this country in this day and age.

 

Selective enforcement is a result of prioritization in this case they are one and the same. I’m glad you agree that the deportation of violent offenders and people with criminal records should be prioritized over this guy. So what again is your problem with the government’s decision not to deport this kid unless he does something wrong?

That’s nice and all, and we are not in disagreement here. But what you are really segueing into is your next statement.

Yes I am and yes it does - that’s the point. I believe that his status as being illegal in this country has little importance. I worry more about people who are dangerous or criminals over people who are here illegally. I’m guessing this is where we diverge. You seemingly would think it is a big deal, I don’t, especially when the title of illegal applies to over 11 million people in this country. Because I don’t believe it is a big deal, I try to point out how little importance it has through various arguments.

There is a consequence, I’ll try to explain that again. This is the same contention that has so far been used by you, Icehouse, and Rocket River at least multiple times. Sometimes twice in the same paragraph. Each time with little to no explanation as to no justification of why what he experiences is not a consequence.

Some do, some don’t. I doubt this kid has ever because most DREAMers simply have not. Even if they do, these offenses are waivable. Have you ever worked on a case where someone committed document fraud? Document fraud sounds a bit scary and sinister, it sounds like a big deal, but it’s not in practice it is not. Same thing with identity theft. Many of these crimes were enacted to cover undocumented immigrants by cynical politicians who, instead of expending effort to do something about the actual problem, took the easy way out to shore up their anti-illegal bonafides. As they are practiced by undocumented, they do not hurt anyone. Certainly they hurt people less on average than someone who recklessly speeds.

Blaming illegal immigrants for employment law violations is putting the carriage in front of the horse. Sure, they choose to work without status, but once again it doesn’t mean much. It’s basically the status quo in this country under current immigration laws. Undocumented immigrants are not the ones to blame, they come following the inexorable pull of economics, they come for jobs. Under current law, if you want to talk about people who violate employment laws, you should look at the employers. They are the ones who actually violate the laws by choosing to employ undocumented labor. Businesses love for people like you to focus on illegals, because it is good for their business, people focusing on illegals creates a better climate for worker exploitation, it distracts people from looking at the real issues and the real culprit, and serves to waste government resources in a way that does not challenge the status quo. That some undocumented people are being hired by employers acting illegally is not some black mark on the employee, it’s a black mark on this messed up system that screams for change.

No it didn’t, but it certainly is way more dangerous to others than document fraud. Reckless driving greatly increases the chance that someone on the road will come to harm. Document fraud and identity theft as they are typically practiced by illegal immigrants are not nearly as detrimental to society as your speeding.

This country is dependent on illegal immigrants. Period. The benefits they bring to the country are enormous, but difficult to quantify because they are forced to work off the grid. Some of the same benefit exists with with legal immigrants, but the amount of legal immigrants to this country are not nearly enough to fill all needed positions in agriculture and food service. Also, legal immigrants tend to be more skilled and are less likely to work in the same areas, so there is little overlap in the positions they take.

Umm ok, but he isn’t screwed. Just like you, he would likely face the consequences of his actions if he were to be picked up. The government isn’t going to pick him up unless he actually commits a crime they care about.

Yes, seriously. I’ve gone over this. He is experiencing the consequences of not going through legal channels. If you don’t believe those are consequences of the law, then justify your belief. You can’t just keep insisting it isn’t a consequence without explaining your reasoning. Right now what you are saying presumes that not getting the benefits of legal immigration doesn’t count as a consequence.

Sorry, the IRS cares more about getting its taxes then DHS cares about deporting some honor student kid with a clean record. He isn’t getting a free pass, if he is ever put into removal proceedings and he doesn’t qualify for some type of relief or the government withholds granting prosecutorial discretion, then he will get deported. If the IRS felt that it should go after some high roller or some company over you when you came out and said I haven’t paid back taxes of $1000, I wouldn’t begrudge them. If they said, no we are never going to go over CometsWin no matter how much money he owes or how egregious his further actions are, then that would be a free pass.

So you agree that it is a mess. You agree that something needs to be done, but you keep insisting that the law, which you acknowledge is messed up, should be enforced to the fullest extent in all cases even when the government doesn’t feel like it meets it’s goals to enforce it, and you keep calling him a criminal. I’m confused, if you think a law is messed up and doesn’t make any sense, why do you think it should be enforced to the highest degree? I guess you could think that even laws that don't make sense should be enforced to the fullest extent, but I think that's a bit odd. Personally I don't think that laws justify themselves. I’ve given some proposals already, so I’ll ask you what do you think of what I have proposed and what alternatives would you propose?

If a law was enacted similar to the IRCA of 1986, giving amnesty to all people currently in the country if they could prove residence as of the date of enactment, would that change how you view the issue? Also don’t forget that you should justify your absolutist statement that he is not facing consequences - given that I have responded to your question and others before it with examples of what I think are consequences, please grant me the same courtesy.

 

I don't agree that it's the same thing. All laws are enforced by some sort of prioritization. Murderers have a higher priority than loiterers and serial killers that murder fifty people have higher priority than someone who murders one person. This is just common sense. My problem with that decision is that it creates incentive for others to come here illegally. If people knew they would be deported as soon as they were found they would be less likely to attempt to come here illegally. Of course we can't go around rounding up millions of people and this is where border security plays its role.

Of course I would be more concerned about dangerous people over simply people that are here illegally. That's not the point. The point is that having 11 million undocumented people in this country is a huge disaster waiting to happen in an age of identity theft and nuclear proliferation. It is a big deal.

This is just sort of absurd. You seem to have no respect to the authority of a society to create laws to protect its citizens. Someone should be allowed to come into my home, steal my identity, and I'm just supposed to be good with that because he just wants a better life for himself. Really? How about when an illegal gets a traffic ticket with my identity and then doesn't show up to court for it because he's afraid of being deported so a warrant for my arrest goes out. Nobody gets hurt by that? How much time and money do you think that American citizens spend sorting out things when someone has stolen their identity? Knowing some people that have dealt with that I can assure you it's a gigantic pain in the ass.

Doesn't mean much? They're not to blame for breaking the law? Are you kidding me? That economics drives any decision doesn't make it a correct decision. What is the effect of illegal immigration on wages for American citizens you think? Business has an incentive to use immigrant labor of course. This creates a wal-mart effect really where the benefit for consumers is counteracted by the depressing of wages. This is kind of like the hookers aren't to blame for prostitution, the drug dealers aren't to blame for the drug trafficking, they're just filling a need.

Speeding isn't wreckless driving. I've sped probably thousands of times and have never harmed anyone in any way. One instance of identity theft does far more damage than my thousand instances of speeding.

Yeah I'd just assume have a legal process that works well and secure borders rather than cheap fruit and what have you. Our country isn't dependent on illegal immigrants, it's just gotten used to this idea of cheap ass labor. It's creates an unsavory underclass of people in this country.

The primary consequence for being here illegally is deportation. Just like the primary consequence for speeding is a fine. He's not facing that consequence. His crime is different though in that it's based on his very existence, his status. You're saying like if I trespassed on your property that I wouldn't have the benefits of getting my mail there or something like that and because that's a consequence of my trespass then I'm being punished. It's not appropriate.

I don't agree. If someone reported to me to the IRS or I boasted in the newspaper that I didn't pay back $1000 I have no doubt they would look into me.

I don't think the law in principal is messed up. I feel we need to have secure borders and to make certain that people that come here are documented. I feel it should be enforced more stringently because it's a serious problem right now. How many millions of people should we allow to be here undocumented before you feel it's a problem? 20 million? 30 million? I don't see what about immigration doesn't make sense. I don't believe that citizenship should be given on the basis of birth any longer. It's obvious this is a huge incentive for people to come here illegally and have their children born on US soil. At least one of your parents should be a confirmed citizen before you're given US citizenship. I think it's time for that. I also believe we need to crack down on employers who employ illegal immigrants. In theory you don't have to deport anyone because as long as they can't find work they're not going to be here. We can create a guest worker program but it's imperative that everyone here is documented in some fashion. This isn't the 1800's any more.

I don't support a law like that at all. It sounds all warm and fuzzy but all it will do is create a new wave of illegal immigration waiting for their law to make them all citizens. People aren't stupid. You give them citizenship as a reward for coming and staying here illegally for a certain period of time and more will come to do the same thing. It's a joke. I don't support deporting all these millions of people but I do support raising the punishment for document fraud, employment fraud for illegals as well as companies and employers. We can create a guest worker program to mitigate the financial impact of all of that. Ideally people will leave on their own and start the process of trying to come back in a legal fashion. We should change the birth laws as well. I think all of that in combination will have a dramatic effect on the problem.

I think you and I have a different definition of the consequences of illegal action. I think jail time is the consequence for drug dealing, not the fact that he can't get a business license to sell crack and set up a storefront at the mall. It's just not same thing.

 

I would like to ask False this question, so i could better understand him/her. I have a cousin who just graduated from USC with a master in engineering, don't remember which field. He is not a citizen but he really want to stay here, what should he do?

 

You automatically can get a training visa after graduating. I believe that gives you either 9 months or a year until it runs out. During that time he would either have to find an employer that could get him an H1-B visa or he'd have to apply for school again and get an F-1 again.

Basically get the training visa to buy some time and then try and get a job that will get him an H1-B visa.