To answer yourself and fchowd not denying any of this but that still doesn't excuse Hamas. Frankly these arguments all end up in relative arguments of morality in claiming that somehow the assymetric nature of the conflict absolves or at least downplays what Hamas does. And besides we aren't just talking about the conflict with Israel but consider how Hamas has killed political opponents and other Palestinians they don't agree with. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11107933 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...alestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty To be fair to y'all and Omar I don't think you're specifically claiming that Hamas are good guys but you are drawing moral equivalences that aren't there. To bring this back to Ilhan Omar. I don't think she thinks these things through when she says them which is why this is the second time she's had to issue an "apology". As one of her constituents a lot has happened in the past year and most of it not good. There are many problems besetting this district that Omar hasn't done much to help with. She frequently skips votes and a lot of her rhetoric has inflamed things more in this district than it has helped.
Both Omar and Trump were drawing equivalences that don't fit. Yes the US, Russia, Israel, Hamas have killed people. No one is denying that. That doesn't mean that the US, Russia, Israel and Hamas are the same. If her point is to note that the we have done bad things in our history and we should do better that can be made better and also addressed in another forum instead of questioning Blinken during a discussion of the ICC. Frankly I question whether she can think through or understand all the implications of what she says. I will say it again she seems far more interested in being a back bench rhetorical bomb thrower than actually getting things done for her district and she's far from the only one in the US House.
In the last election her primary opponent, Anton Melton Meiux got over 40% of the vote. That's unusual for an incumbent in such a safe district. While the GOP might not capture this district it is not far fetched that she could be defeated in a primary.
I'm honestly getting frustrated now. When did Omar or I or Donatello excuse Hamas? And the US has objectively done more damage, more murder etc than Hamas. They have destabilized more nations than Hamas. They have removed democratic agency and sovereignty of nations from South America to the Middle East far more than Hamas. That doesn't excuse Hamas. It means that we need some God dam self-awareness and understand our actions and Israel's actions fuel support for entitites like Hamas. And yes as @dobro1229 has stated intent matters. Trump actually was excusing Putin in context of the question he was asked and that is possibly because a foerign leader has some sort of influence on Trump. Omar is not saying what she said due to some selfish reason due to having ties to Hamas where the statement benefits her standing with Hamas. She made that statement to shake Americans out of their bubble. I'll say though that her attempt is futile. American media is so powerful and ubiquitous that we are so deeply entrenched in our bubble. And it doesn't help that she wears a hijab. That's going to result in more accusations that she supports Hamas rather than her genuine motive for the statement.
By saying that you're pretty much excusing Hamas. All the two of you have brought up is how hard it is fight in Gaza and many things which Israel has done. You even brought up earlier that Hamas was elected just like the US government was overlooking the fact that there hasn't been an election in Gaza in 15 years and that Hamas killed and drove out their opposition. Have you considered that Hamas' actions also fuel the Israeli right and that Netanyahu's ability to survive owes a lot to Hamas' actions? What Omar said was poorly phrased and given her previous history I believe was intentionally meant to be inflammatory. Again why bring that up during a discussion with Blinken with a discussion about the ICC? If her intent was that the US should actually be part of the ICC her statement will make it harder for that to happen. As far as being entrenched in our bubble again stepping out of one bubble doesn't mean stepping into another. You keep on talking about bubbles and self awareness but all of that seems focused on criticizing the US and Israel in the context of the conflict with Hamas. Not being in a bubble would mean also understanding what Hamas does also.
Not only inflammatory but also self aggrandizing as seen by her sending it out on twitter. Me thinks she has missed being in the spotlight.
I will agree to some extent with AOC that Omar get's threatened a lot. I've seen and heard first hand the disgusting bigoted and flat out false rhetoric against her. Like Is said about the Israel versus Hamas conflict just because Omar get's threatened a lot doesn't excuse that she says a lot of inflammatory rhetoric or that she isn't doing a good job as a US Representative.
I agree but I don't see how criticizing Omar publicly raises those threat levels. I really don't understand that tweet by AOC it reeks of entitlement.
I think thats exactly the argument. No one here is defending hamas-So I guess to be clear since that is a sticking point, II not only denounce hamas, I'm fine with taking them out military style, but the way israel has done it in conjuction with no mercy for children, hospitals, press, schools and then the other MAJOR connection is they control utilities, electricity, water in this place where those constituents have NO PLACE To run to, as in israel controls the border too and if they can leave in this small DEnce place leaves it open season for kids to continue to be killed.(https://www.timesofisrael.com/bennett-says-idf-should-shoot-to-kill-gazans-who-cross-border/) ITs a slippery slope just like Trump deeming anyone who is aggressively against him to be 'aggresive against 'america' and thus a terrorist and then open season. I bet half the populace just like in Iraq, afghanistan have no idea what hamas is doing and are trying to just survive poverty. Its like in paksitan where we supported their 'democracy' or in 'iraq' when 90 percent of the populace doesnt even have access to learn to read, that point runs mute. HEck even in america where we have one as mentioned half the country doesnt feel represented every four years. So using hamas as a justification that the murder of children and women is ok because the bad guys were behind him should hold well as cops shooting a bunch of children and saying well teh guy was holding em hostage as HUMAN SHIELDS so we had to do what we had to do. No there are war laws, there are limits. Likewise this has only emboldened How Saudi treats and terrorizes Yemeini children women to the point of an inhumane famine. both of those wars are funded by american Arms. Or how Myanamr says rhongiya are terrorist so they had to safely handle them(they have raped and pilage their villages).... or how china says hong kong free speech were terrorist or better yet that ughuirs are terrorist...so then they have a right to protect right? do they have a right to have work camps and genocide? Likewise india in Kashmir still imposing a lock down and open air prison on disputed land....wow right out of the palestine playbook. I'm totally fine with cirtisizing Omar, this is America. I don't think shes great at her messaging and leaves out nuances and issues especially with Israel that disrespects a good ally, a great populace to call them by a broad brush when its more towards netanyahu. Let alone, she said what trump says that american politics is complicated and we've been a part of some shady stuff. Do you know how hamas started? It was propped up by israel to counter the PLO and then they became an extrme issue...you remember the fight against taliban we spent trillions on and dethroned govertnemtns...oh yea we just made a deal with em in the end..... so Yea I don't think she or anyone else likes hamas and would be fine denouncing it. Its just media shills who say what she said, which was true, and turned that into support of hamas via moral equivalence. Nah, F hamas...also Netanyahu, all that does is deflect from the actual injustices and thinks the UN has called an apartheid and a war crime, likewise Mandela has called them that(don't forget, we had mandela on a terror watch list and supported S africa's apartheid regime until we didn't) And a lot of this is messaging, as I put up the other video its a condensed 21 minute documentary how savvy aipac and israeli messaging is..before someone tries to count a government lobbying arm criticism being deemed anti simentic, they're playbook is followed by Saudis doing a lot of the same and is absolutely terrible, does that make me islamophobic too? ...Once again, just deflections not attacking the actual issuse
and wearing western clothes and cool colors to get the kids maybe michelle bachman was right this whole time
You're all over the place here and covering many issues but to keep it on topic. As you rightly note the situation involving Hamas and Israel is very complicated but Omar's rhetoric is very simplistic and my own opinion is both not thought out and meant to be inflammatory. Remember the first time her colleagues censured her over this was her saying that support for Israel was "all about the Benjamins". I wrote a post in the latest "Israel Palestinian" thread about the complexity and moral ambiguity of this conflict so won't rehash it here but Omar's comments on the issue aren't helpful.
I wasn't disagreeing at all with you on Omar. I actually agree ver batim, her rhetoric is very simplistic, not thought out, and perhaps imflammatory because its not thought out becaue you have to brespectful of israeili citizens along with the other side. tehre are a LOT of innocent parties, there are victims, and there are aggressors. I consider both Netanyahu and Hamas to be the aggressors an unfortunatley history has shown many governments or powers not doing whats best for their populace. So I didn't disagree, I don't know if you want me to do some grand monkey dance, flag raising type of thing with memes to show it to you more but as an adult, I don't see how I am not being absolute in it. I don't agree with ilhan omar, I don't think she is the right carrier bc she can't get teh message down without making a headline that deflects. And unfortunatley thats what I feel in my opinon you are doing. You are saying yea I hear that you aren't defending hamas or Omar, bt you're not doing it enough and also bring up actual facts and context bc this is not a black and white situation, so thats not enough. No no, as I said. I'm not here bc i agree with omar, I'm not here bc i agree with hamas. In fact I Think we'd have more progress without the the two. Still doesn't make israeli actions just in any case. This is geopolitics, not legos, they can both be terribly wrong.
I've been told to pay more attention to the work and less attention to the tweets of politicians. I'm trying to remember whose supporters were espousing that idea.
" Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) “The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.” “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote."
