If you were GM what moves would you make August 1st.

This is not correct. He played over 90% of the time as a SG for Atl. He shot better and rebounded better than when he played PG for them
http://www.82games.com/03ATL4C.HTM

This was barely over 1 year ago, and his time with Atlanta as a shooting guard playing between their point guard, Jason Terry and their small forward Stephen Jackson. I have no doubt JVG is aware of this and given quite a few paralells with Terry to Stoudamire and James (offensive oriented quick 1s with excellent outside shooting) would play this line-up given the chance.

See the point above, for both Atl (primarily an SG--no small sample there) and Hou (primarily a PG) Sura was more efficient/productive at the 2.

When DS and Tmac would be in the line-up, Sura's job on offense would be to spot up shoot when wide open (he was only .02 off Wesley) and drive if opponents are overaggresive (much better at this than Wesley). It is very much how SA uses Manu and Barry when they run the O though Duncan. Of course Sura isn't as good as Manu, but he is at least as good as what Brent Barry showed for SA (and Sura is a much better defender and reboudner than Barry). Being able to put the ball on the floor and get to the hoop on overaggresive rotations does not make you a PG, but those skills are nice to have in any perimeter player.

All these points emphasize why it is advantagous to at least give Sura a look at playing more SG (or even back-up SF). 1) The evidence supports he would be more effective there, and 2) I believe SG would need more help than PG with DS and James handling things. If we add DS and I pretty sure our best back-court has DS and Sura in it, and our 2nd best has James and Sura in it. In fact Sura helped turn Atl around in this kind of role. They were an atrocious team who played about 500 ball with Sura playing SG between Terry and Jackson. Now think of what he will do sandwiched between Stoud/James and Tmac, with Yao + Swift/JH rounding out the front line. Hell of team IMO.

 

The position distribution of 82games is not going to be perfect. Sura was playing next to Jason Terry. 82games is not taking into account the roles that players are playing. In his time in Atlanbta, Sura was playing more of the point guard role. Sura was handling the ball more than Jason Terry. He wouldn't have averaged +5 assists if he were not playing the role of point guard on that team. Also, the role that Sura played in Atlanta with Jason Terry and Stephen Jackson will NOT be the same role he plays in the backcourt with Damon Stoudamire. Not as long as Tracy Mcgrady is here.

If you're going to compare our backcourt to San Antonio. Stoudamire will play the same role as Parker. Mcgrady will play the same role as Manu (NOT Sura), and Sura will play the role of Bowen, which is to basically take 3 pointers all game long.

Sura is NOT the shooter that David Wesley is. He made 55 out of 155 3-pointers last year. David Wesley made 118 out of 315 3-pointers. I'm just baffled that you think making Bob Sura a spot up shooter is a better role for him than a playmaker off the bench.

It would be advantageous to keep him in the role that he has been sucessful in the past 1 and a half seasons. Which is the playmaker role. Having him come of the bench and lead the second unit would allow him to keep that playmaker role. Putting him in the starting lineup and making him a spot up shooter would be a drastic change. Why mess with something that isn't broken? If you want to experiment a little, fine. Let him play some backup minutes at the 2. But he played too well at the point last season to have him completely abandon that position.

 

BTW, just took a look at 82games and our top five-man units last season. Not once does it list Sura and James together in the same lineup. If they were such a great combination in the backcourt, you would think Van Gundy would have found a way to get them more playing time together.

http://www.82games.com/0405HOU2.HTM

 

Terry averaged 5.4 APG, Sura 5.3APG (Jackson was 3rd on the team). Further, it looks like since Sura arrived most games one of them lead the team in assists--but pretty evenly distributed between each player.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=atl&season=2004

Looks to me they were sharing a lot of PG/SG duties. Exactly what I was saying DS or James would do if paired with Sura. I am pretty sure they didn't have Jason Terry guard opposing 2s and 3s either, I am pretty sure that was Sura and Jackson's job as it would be Sura and Tmacs running the same kind of line-up. And again, Atlanta went from one of the worst teams to a respectable 500 or so with Terry at the 1, Sura at the 2, and Jackson at the 3. It had to be working OK for them on both ends, and they didn't have the likes of Yao and Swift in the interior.

I would more compare Sura to what Brent Barry did within the Spurs offense (of course Sura is a much better defender than Barry). Sura can get to the hole or take a mid range shot a lot better than Bowen. Shooting 3s is the only thing Bowen can do with any sorts of offensive efficiency.

I said Wesley is the slightly better spot up shooter. Those numbers = .025% difference in 3s. However I think Sura superior mid-range game, finishing ability, and passing ability make up the difference in 3%. Like with Bowen, with Wesley the main thing you have to do is not leave him wide open and you can be overaggressive in rotations to get to his spots. With Sura (like with Barry, or Manu--but neither is to Manu’s level obviously), you run out a little out of control and he will break you down off the dribble and get a much higher % shot for himself or a lay-up for a teammate. More ball handling and penetration on the wings is a good thing to have, even if your main job is to spot up shoot.

Yes, but the year before he played a ton with Terry as the primary 1, and Sura was very effective. Further, Terry isn’t as physical or the defender James is, there is no reason to think if Sura/Terry did OK mixing and matching opponents guards on the defensive end James/Sura would not do the same. (Plus, if there is that ridiculous swingman going off, be it on Sura, Wesley, Barry or anybody, for the critical moments there is just no way around not having Tmac draw the assignment. Not a mainstay where Tmac is on him the whole game, you want to throw other guys out there to make this guy work and work, but in the end Tmac is the x-factor)

Besides, the fact Sura and James never played together might have had something to do with the facts that: a) the Rockets needed them for 48MPG at the 1 because they had no other 1 above CBA quality on the entire roster, b) James was with the team for a short stint for the playoff stretch (not exactly the time to experiment), and c) rarely was Sura healthy by that time and we didn’t want to extend his minutes any more than necessary give point a). I'd be willing to wager if we add another proven PG we would see that Sura and James combination a healthy amount.

Well at least you are open to the possibility that it might work. I think he would be at his best with another combo guard, in particular a hybrid quick 1 with a more shooting/ scoring orientation, and Terry, Stoud and James all fit the bill to a T. I guess we will only be able to confirm or disapprove our theories about what JVG would do with Sura and what role is bets for him if we happen to get another legit PG on the roster. If we can get a proven SG comparable to how D Stoud is a proven 1 I would be fine keeping Sura as an almost exclusive 1 because we need him there (unless Head comes along 3x faster as an NBA 1 than a reasonable person would expect). Maybe a Finley, Houston, Spree, or Kittles will fall into our lap and play well. But for now IMO no single move discussed helps our starting backcourt and backcourt depth than landing DS and having Sura pick up most of his minutes in the 2. I think it would be good for our PG play, SG play, and Sura's game himself. Obviously we disagree, that’s fine.

 

What happened to Brent Barry is exactly what I don't want to see happen to Bob Sura. Barry used to be one of the most creative point guards in the league. He was an excellent playmaker in Seattle and averaged close to 6 assists a game in his final year there.

Then he went to San Antonio, they moved him to the 2/3, and he basically became nothing but a spot up shooter. His production went down across the board. I'm sure the Spurs would love to get rid of his contract if they could. Turning Sura into a spot up shooter would hurt his game even more than it hurt Barry's game, because Sura is not even close to the shooter that Barry has been throughout his career.

I don't even know how this Sura/James backcourt talk got started, because if Sura is in the starting lineup, he's hardly going to spend any time on the court with Mike James. Unless you think Sura is going to play more minutes than Stouadmire. If Sura is starting, he's going to spend pretty much all of his time on the court with Stoudamire.

The backcourt is not something that is mutually exclusive to the front court. You can't just say Sura/Terry played well together, so will Sura/Stoudamire. You're not taking into account Yao, Mcgrady, and even Swift. The Atlanta Hawks did not have a point forward like Tracy Mcgrady and a point center like Yao Ming. Sura didn't have to share the ball. He wasn't the 5th option in Atlanta, like he would be here. He was the 2nd option in Atlanta and was the 3rd option here last season.

Another thing you have to consider is that Jason Terry is an excellent defender. A backcourt of Sura/Terry is not nearly as bad defensively as Sura/Stoudamire.

We've had a hybrid backcourt here before with Francis and Mobley and it didn't work out too well. The thing about having a backcourt with 2 hybrid guards is they tend to dominate the ball. Because both guards are used to being the point guard and both guards are used to handling the ball all the time. Backcourts like Francis/Mobley and Terry/Sura may be good for bad or mediocre teams, but it's not what wins championships. We'd be better off just getting a backcourt that'll get Yao/Mcgrady the ball and get out of the way.

 

Sura can contribute in a lot of ways other than how Barry does. He is stronger and a better defender. Everybody, SA's brass included, were surprised how ordinary Barry shot. I hope his shooting stays down, but I wouldn't count on it. Bowen, Manu and even Brown didn't have a problem for that style of offense.

I made the offensive comparison of Sura with JT to Sura with DS or MJ. I figure Sura would get PT with both guys, and other SGs will get mixed in with both guys. If DS is getting killed defensively you have James, who is quick and strong enough to play almost all the PGs. Still, there just aren't many Billips around, most PGs beat you on quickness. Sura has a lot less than DS or James.

No matter where you play Sura, PG or SG, it isn't going to take away the fact he plays with Tmac and Yao, where the offense goes through. And it isn't going to take away that he will be 4th or 5th option. But having a quicker PG could allow Sura to rebound more on the offensive end, help use defensively rebound without killing our transition game, it may help us us set up the offense earlier, and make us less exploitable by quick 1s defensively.

I don't think it is a good comparison, Francis is not a disciplined player, not very heady, and is turnover prone. However Billips, Bibby, Parker, Terry, lots of other PGs with a strong scoring mentality do well. Often they have been paired with SGs who get a far amount of assists too--Manu, Christie or Bobby J (in Sac's heyday), Hamilton. I don't remember too many complaints about those guys not getting the likes of Webber, Duncan, Wallace, involved. Go back further to Thomas and Dumars. The key thing was not these guys are combo guards--or guards with mixed skills sets of trad9tional 1s or 2s, it was that they were heady guys who reinforced each other's good tendencies. Francis and Mobley were the opposite, they were better as individuals than as a tandem. Based on how Atl went from a terrible team to decent with Sura & Terry reinforcing each other's game, Sura & DS/MJ could well be our best two combinations of guards if we acquired DS.

Any way, we will go around and around on this, New Jack I think you have some valid concerns, but I still think Sura at the 2 is a net benefit IF we acquired someone like DS. Again, I just think he would compliment DS or James better than the much slower Wesley or Barry. I think we gain backcourt quickness and a more multi-threat offensive tandem with Sura at the 2.

 

I want James to go away... I don't like his attitude, competing against TMAC. We could use him to get a decent PG like Stoudamire.

 

I thought James was a no-brainer for starter this coming year, but then he went crazy during game 7....and i think that is gonna make JVG change his mind

 

Some people make much too much of a few plays when the whole team was frustrated, the whole team pretty much played bad that game, and the whole team knew their season was over.

Most players get the big picture even if a lot of fans have knee jerk reactions.

 

I've very much enjoyed this thread and most posts are really debating miniatuae (ah, the offseason ).

The Desert Scar/New Jack rumble has me agreeing with both of them so much my head hurts.

It's impossible to type that much and not get a little carried away or mis-characterize an argument, so with my complete gratitude for both of your opinions/efforts I of course have to disagree about something.

Desert Scar, I don't know how much you saw Illinois play last year but it was completely a 3 guard offense. Head's strength/quickness allowed him to to play very good defense against much taller players some of whom were playing the 3, but he basically played the 1 in big chunks of games as situations dictated, and never really the 3. I think you really meant Head's probably not ready to play the 1 in the NBA right now and he's going to have a big adjustment against the 2's in the NBA.

New Jack, Cat is not nearly as quick as Arenas or Parker. He's not as quick as Iverson (once a pg) or SF (we prayed he was a pg) or Johnson. Cat plays very good D with efficient smarts and great effort, but he almost has to be ignored (or on the break) to effectively drive the lane now. Even though I agree with your overall point (in context) there...whew.

Please carry on.

 

Didn't see Illinois much but I thought Head as officially the 3. I know Williams and Brown are points too, right? How in your view does Head stack up to them in being able to lead the break, control the ball, and set up the offense?

You are right one of my main concerns (with say moving James) is whether Head is really ready to contribute to the PG position. It is one thing to contribute as a tweener guard (take a tough defensive assignment be in a 1 or 2, but play an SG role on offense), it is another to be asked to lead an NBA team. Seeing how highly regarded Deven Harris sucks IMO as a rookie point guard (James tore him a new one when they matched up in the playoffs) I am relectant to expect PG contributes from Head, at least right away (I don't think Harris is the exception, I think he is the norm for NBA 1s). If here and there Head can provide defense on a hot SG/PG, help the up tempo game/finish, and shoot OK from the outside, I think that is all you can ask of the rookie. It would not entirely suprise me if he wasn't ready for big time minutes or big time situations this year though.

I will also say his shooting in the summer league was less than I was hoping. He was an OK 3 shooter in college (like 40% from the college line), but not spectacular. I have said before my preference for the pick was Salim Stoudamire, an absolute lights out distance shooter and instictive scorer with a mid-range game as well (yes I know he didn't fair well in the Ill game, but Ill went all out to stop him and even then that was rare when someone tried), and better defender than people credit, but I am hopefull about Head too. I hope both guys do very well.

Sorry for making you head hurt, I am sure New Jack and I did that to the few others who managed to all the way through as well Neither New Jack nor myself give an inch very easily, but I hope (and think) the exchanges bring up good points and good discussion.

 

James PG, Sura PG/SG, JHo PF, Baker C, + No.1 Pick $16,691,650
Antonio Davis PF, Kirk Hinrich PG/SG $16,314,320

Bulls:
Duhon/James, Sura/Gordon, Deng/Nociono, Chandler/JHo, Curry/Baker.

Rockets:
Hinrich/Head, Wesley/Barry, Tracy/Glover, Swift/Davis, Yao/Deke.

 

from Desert Scar:

I'd say all 3 looked liked legit starting pgs to me. Brown probably has a better J, and both he and Williams have more pure speed (not by much IMHO). Williams probably has better handles but I don't think he's a better passer than Head from what I've seen. Both are silkier driving to the basket than Head. Regarding the break, Head's a motor guy and he breaks off his own rebound and either finishes or passes off very well. I can't compare him to Brown or Williams here because in that offense the two guys that didn't have the ball were flying down the wings and they all wreaked havok.

Setting up the offense, well Illinois had only, I think, 3 plays that I could discern which most often got cut off and if the inside pass wasn't there they seemed to swing it around and shoot most of the time. But again I really think Head's a nifty passer.

Im terms of being an NBA prospect Head's just a completely different guard than both of them. He looks strong and is probably stronger than he looks. He loves contact and looks for it especially when he drives, and I'd worry about that more in his rookie season than his very disappointing shooting in the summer league. Trouble is, of course, I think we need him to play significant minutes defensively this year so he had better learn quickly.

Salim Stoudamire would have been sweet here. If we get a young pure shooter along the lines of a young Allen/Redd we'd probably be trendy picks to take it all this year. Damn, I forgot we still have another problem...

 

Trade James for LeBron..