If you know what I know, then why aren't you a Muslim too?

unless of course your opinion is absolutely wrong and God has chosen to reval himself through one or more of the faith traditions we see on this planet.

 

Max,

Yep, except that God has never done this, except through people, and people are corruptable.

God exists, but doesn't let us in on the secret.

DD

 

By the way.

Sane....are we supposed to believe you are right, simply because you say you are???????

I mean that is what you are doing concerning the Q'ran.

Would it surprise you to know that the Q'ran was written to help control piracy?

Guess not....cause you would already know this...right?

EP

 

so says you. just understand there are reasonable and intelligent people on the other side of that coin.

 

you do realize i could flip this right around on you given your last post to me, right?

 

Though it is not what is practiced in most 'muslim' countries today, the religion of Islam states that unlike Christianity and Judaism, there is no religious class of people. There are no Priests, Rabbi's or any 'holy' men. God is supposed to be between every individual and thier maker. You don't need to call the operator before getting in. I thought this was a very strong point in Islam. It is as if the religion realizes what you stated, that the nature of man will corrupt religion, so it made religion a personal issue. The irony is that much of the muslim world does not follow the actual Quran. During the time of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, he allowed prisoners to be treated humanely and would let them live if they surrendered. He also stressed that only those in combat could be attacked. I 'humbly' believe that he would cringe at those that use his name for their own glorification and their acts of terror and villany.

Another point in Islam that I feel helps to limit the financial incentives of many to corrupt religion is the framework for a mosque, or Church of Islam. It is outlawed for any fee or membership charge to be assessed to individuals. It works 100% on charitable contributions. Therefore many can go to a mosque for years and never give a penny. I think it is a travesty that many religious groups charge fees for membership, and also for charge for their seating arrangements. An islamic mosque has no seats and no order, everyone is supposed to be equal.

Of course very little is actually practiced, but that is the framework that the Quran sets to limit the practices you speak of and inherant weakness of man.

 

1. No where in the Bible does it state there are to be a religious class of people. See the Reformation!

2. What religious groups charge membership fees? I've never heard of that before.

 

Max,

I am saying that NONE of us are right and we will only find out upon death.

DD

 

Of course he was saying all of this whilst having sex with his 9 year old wife.

Yep, that Muhammed what a great pedaphi.....errrr....prophet.

DD

 

and i'm saying I disagree.

 

As a Christian, I do not need a "middle-man" to speak with God or to ask for forgiveness for any of my sins. My relationship with God is personal and is between Him and me only. We have leaders (i.e. pastors) that lead service and that can be consulted when needed.

I also have never once been charged money to go to church. Ever.

 

Fair enough. No way of winning this bet I guess, unless you have a book that was written by God, and not just inspired by him/her.




DD - love to poke the hornets nest you know.

 

Not really.

 

it's not a bet...not in the slightest. to me, it is what it is. i find Christ to be true...

 

DaDakota,

I think I have just come up with the conclusion that you are an idiot. First you drag out the so original "Religion is there to Control the Masses " lingo trying to be some sort of intellectual then I respond with reasons a religion has separated the whim of men from the religion and instead of arguing or using fact or logic you use an incorrect statement. I understand you read your little "Quote" out of someone's post and wanted to make yourself sound intelligent, but why don't you actually create a point for once instead of idiotic comments that usually come from you?

I think what annoys me the most about this BBS is the people like you who do not wish to discuss a point, but simply wish to throw out a few blanket statements then follow it up with sarcasm.

 

Khan,

Do you dispute that Mohammed had a 9 year old wife? I believe he married her at 7 and consumated at 9.

Of course he is a great man to base an entire religion on, or is he?

What about Jesus? I mean, he dissappears from the bible at the age of 12 and reappears around 30.

I guess the missing 18 years of his life had no bearing on Christianity.

I find organized religion to be created by man to explain the unexplainable, and to control the masses.

If you believe differently fine...but don't get all pissy because I point out the flaws in it.

Or maybe just maybe, I have made an educated decision not to follow a pedaphile like Mohammed.

DD

 

how in the world do you get from point a to point b on this one? I can't tell what happened to Jesus for 18 years...thus, I find organized religion to be created by man to explain the unexplainable. ??? huh???

again...my relationship with God does very little in my way of explaining the unexplainable....God is in the explainable as well, and that's where I typically find him more evident.

 

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

==============================================

I don't even Know why I am arguing this fact, because I am not a religious person at all anyway. What I was stating was that there were factors in Islam that made it a God-Individual religion, limiting the involvement of a religious caste or class; or a financial affiliation with a house of God.

So if there are no religious leaders in Islam, and the Mosque is not allowed to charge people, the true form of the religion makes it difficult to control people. Each individual is supposed to read and be educated themselves and understand what the Quran says. I'm not saying its the best system, but would it not reduce the 'human error' element in religion?

 

how do you explain the power of the Imans in the Muslim culture..particularly in the Muslim theocracies of the world? or particularly in areas of the world where vast numbers of people can't read the Koran on their own?

i agree with you, this is the best way...but I don't know if it's an accurate description of Islam in many parts of the world today.

 

Max,

My point is that some people are basing their ENTIRE religious belief system upon incomplete and inaccurate data.

Why are there no stories about Jesus from 12-30? What was he doing? Were they edited because they did not fit the holy image?

I really don't know, and neither does anyone else, and in my mind that makes it inconclusive and more of a mythos than a religion.

But to each his/her own....believe what you want, or don't.

DD