I'm not sure I understand the logic in this. We trade Battier for Lewis, and they are both SFs...but if Batteir and T-Mac can be on the floor together why can't T-Mac and Lewis. In my opinion the 2 and the 3 are bothe wing players, and inter-changeable. I know for a fact, Hayes wasn't our SG last year.
Seriously, read Possum's post again. What IF, and yeh this example may not work but salary aside, what IF we got billups for mcgrady plus filler, say like delfino or mcdyess or both or webber even. We would have a playmaker in billups, yao at center, and rashard at the 3. Plus whomever else we get. Rashard provides some points, billups makes the plays (and can score), and yao is the anchor, plus some bench power. That's the point possum is trying to make. Forget his comments about stats already, you're not even arguing the core of the debate. He's not saying trade Lewis for T-Mac (as you said in your last post), he's saying if we get the sign and trade where sura, battier and whatever is sent for Lewis, then should we consider upgrading the rest of the team by trading T-Mac. Is Lewis, T-Mac, Yao > Lewis, Yao + whatever we can get for T-mac? That is the question. I say hell yes, see what people are willing to offer for T-mac. Also regardless of whether we get Lewis or not through the sign and trade.
Yes, that would be true except for the players. Battier is a predominately a defensive presence and Lewis would be an offensive presence predominately. McGrady can be great defensively, but at his age (wear and tear wise) it is better to let him score and run the offense. They could co-exist I suppose but MacGrady's true value to the Rox for next year may be his trade value this year, but I don't think it is as great as some of the people on this board do. So getting a PG and a PW for him might, at this point, be a prudent coarse of action. That would leave Sura's contract, Juwan and our MLE plus other assets untouched for additional help. We gave up 3/5 of our starting line-up from a playoff quality team for TMac and he has never taken to the promised land. BTW: Possum, quit speaking in sign language so we have to try too interpret for you.
I really dont know why i read these dumb ass threads. I dont understand the fascination with trading your best player. Yeah i said your best player including Yao. There are only a couple of players in the entire league i would trade McGrady for and those few, the other teams aren't going to trade them for him anyway. Let me ask all who wants to trade McGrady. What was Miami reord without shaq? Yeah losing even with the great D-wade. What was Minny record with a healthy team the entire year including the great garnett? Yeah losing also. Yet the rockets lost at the time their leading scorer and rebounder and the go 20 and 12 yet when t-mac was out the team was 2-7 this year and i dont think they won a game last year without him. Yet people want to trade him. Lets get other players to take alot of the load off him and Yao. I always thought this team was flawed with 2 bench players starting and a ok role player around Yao and tracy. Upgrade the talent and this team can fight in the west and come out with playoffs victories. We also need yao to get his stamina up to par and be more of a force all the time. Although i think Lewis is a pipe dream, and i think thats too much for a glen rice type of guy, it is what it is. I would prefer a dog like Artest or that dominant low post block scorer like Randolph.
And how do you suggest we get an Artest or Randolf? Sorry to keep you in this dumb ass thread but how do you suggest we "Upgrade the talent"? Im not being sarcastic either leebe. I seriously dont see how we can upgrade enough and add depth to this team with the contracts we have now. Not enough to compete with Dallas, Pheonix, SA. I dont care how we do it with the exception of filling this team up with players like Bonzi and Artest. I just want us to be a LEGITAMATE CONTENDAR again. If we can do it and keep TMac then im all for it. I just dont know if he (TMac) is the player most people think he is anymore. I know he is an incredible scorer and at times he can take games over but when is he going to do that when it really counts and do it consistanly? That is what you and others are suggesting he is capable of isnt it? Like I said I just want to win. I put no single player over the team. Well I did once. Akeem to me should of never had to play elsewhere. He brought us 2 championships and because of that he deserved IMO to stay as long as he wanted.
Just like with Carter and Davis, i think there are some players either from injury or just veiwed as a bad seed will be moved at below market value. I think Artest,Randolph and Ricky davis are guys that will be traded below market value. Portland is going with the new look younger guys eventhough Zach is only 25 or 26. Artest had issues in Sacamento so he's gone and Ricky davis is Ricky Davis. Since Minny isn't going anywhere he's probably on the block too. I dont even know if the Rox want guys like that, but i know 4 sure that when they're traded, people will say the other team got a steal. I mean Iverson was traded for andre miller and joe smith! Are you going to tell me shane cant get artest? It supply and demand plus risk. personally, i think if the Rox offered Shane, who is a great guy on and off the court, plus another veteran with expiring contract like Sura and either head or the draft pick, they could get Randolph. You have Tracy,Yao and randolph as a base, they would be contenders right now. I just think they have to make it happen and take a risk on randolph or artest typy of guy.
I hope you are right. I wuold love Randolf myself. Artest is an incredible player just to much of a risk IMO.
If we could get Artest or Randolf for Battier, I would say fine keep T-Mac. We could then possibly be a contender. But I don't think Battier and trash will be enough for either. Some other team will trump that offer. The Rockets would not be the only team to take a chance on hugely talented head cases. That is why I think you have to trade T-Mac to have any hope of being a contender in the next 4 years. T-Mac's great year raised his stock dramatically and we could fill a number of holes with significant players or salary space (in 2 years) and/or high draft picks. A tweek here and there will not get us past Phoenix, San Antonio, Dallas and others. Bibby, Lewis, Randolf, Billups, etc. are all pipe dreams.
Dude your using EFF as a credible metric of statistics. You do know its not pace adjusted and doesnt take into account minutes played. You cant make up for the stats like that. PER says Tmac is the better player by far and their stats arent even close
Feel free to post them if you feel it will prove anything. I dont know what you are trying to get at I have ademently stated that TMac is the far better player so I dont know what else to say. That seems to be one of the biggest problems with this board now. There are so many members and it gets so congested that no one wants to read the whole thread before responding anymore. There are just so many bad post now its almost become not worth it to read all of them all. A vicious circle! I miss the old days when this board was jumping with incitefull knowlegeable BB talk.
Post what, the stats? You allready did, and trust me I read all of your posts. my only problem is using outdated metrics like EFF in a comparison regarding statistics. I dont understand the logic of trading Tmac because of the addition of Rashard. Hes not the better player and trading away Tmac for lesser talent is a backwards move. Point is, if your lucky enough to add Rashard with limited assets you run with what you got. Rafer Tmac Rashard Hayes Yao Thats a well rounded lineup, and Rashard both of their games compliment eachother very nicely.
My point was stats per game you get similar numbers right? Never said Lewis was the better player just that you would be getting similar production (per game) with Lewis in the lineup that Tmac gives you. With TMac being so valuable you should be able to land some serious depth in a trade for him. Remember what we gave up for him? We got TMac and a bunch of trash for Francis, (at the time an allstar)Mobley (very productive player) and Cato who had a bloated contract but was playing the 4 next to Ming very well at the time. TMac has at least as much trade value now if not more. Just playing devils advocate here. So by adding Lewis and say we get back at least what we gave for Tmac. One allstar, one very productive young payer and one good role player. By no means do I give him away for anything less. Go through every team and pick who you think we could get for a player of TMacs caliber and add them to Ming, Lewis, with what we already have and tell me how is that a backwards move compared to having Ming, Tmac, Lewis and what we have now. few examples TMac + trash for Gasol, Miller and Stoudamire. OR TMac + trash for Peirce, Jefferson and Telfair. OR TMac + trash for Randolf, Brandon Roy and Dickau. Add any of those to Ming and Lewis, now what do you think? I think it has a chance of working either way just cant decide which way would be best for the team IMO. Guess for me it would come down to who we could get in return for TMac.
Possum, instead of being so vague, give us an example so we can get a clearer picture how ridiculous this idea is. Who would you trade McGrady for?
Oh, nevermind, I see you already did. If we could get Pierce, Jefferson, and Telfair for McGrady + "trash" (which trash?), then it wouldn't be completely insane... Your other scenarios, though, are.
Trash = anyone thats not starting caliber. Look at what we got with TMac. T Lue, Reice Gaines and Juwan Howard. You think getting Zach Randolf, Brandon Roy and Dan Dickou (sp?) for Tmac is insane? Ming Randolf Lewis Snyder Roy Thats a pretty athletic line up. All im suggesting is if we could get back in return an allstar, a very good player and a young up and coming player, that would give us solid depth for years to come. Throw in TMacs back problems and it might be the best way to go. Of course all this depends on whether we were able to land a player like Lewis (a viable 2nd or 3rd scoring option) for Battier. What worries me is that when we first got TMac everyone (including me) thought that older free agents who wanted a chance at getting a ring would be lining up to join our super duo. Where are they? With TMacs contract and Yoas we cant add good enough players around them through free agency. At least we havent up to date. Once again couple that with TMacs back problems it has to be a concern for our future. TMac will never have the trade value that he has right now. If there is any doubt about his health or that we can add the peices around he and Ming in the next couple of years to compete with Dallas, SA or Pheonix then it is probably in our best interest to see what we can get for him. Im just being realistic. To not consider all possibilities and blindly ride a players jock just because you like him is wht is insane. Too many people are player fans now instead of team fans. I just dont understand that.
