Hayes, Your last point is not a fact ... Muslims managed to rule a huge part of Central Asia and kept subjects from different religions without subjecting them to terror or forcing them to convert. India is a good example. The Mogul rule was in effect for over 2-300 years, and the Muslims and Hindus co-existed, peacefully. As FranchiseBlade said, taken out of context, things sound very different than when taken within context. You are not supposed to force your religion onto anyone. It is none of my business who follows what religion. To protect the faith, it says in the Quran to pick up arms when you are being attacked and not to back down when that happens. If you just take one or two verses from this particular chapter, they'll sound like it says to kill everyone. When I get home, I'll look it up and post the correct chapters and verses if anyone is interested. --rockit
OK, I'll check into that. Doesn't seem to be the case. "In 1669 Aurangzeb issued a general order for the destruction of Hindu temples." As per rough estimates about 3000 (Three Thousand) temples were destroyed and converted into Mosques in the 750 years of Muslim rule in India. But let bygones be bygones....During the sultanate and later under Aurangzeb, many hundreds of thousands of Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam. Shah Jahan appointed a superintendent of converts charged with the special responsibility for making converts. The sentences of criminals and prisoners of war were readily remitted and the individuals were granted daily allowances upon embracing Islam. The conversion of Muslims to Hinduism, on the other hand, constituted the crime of apostasy and was punished by death. The Jaziya, a special tax levied on all non-Muslims, was both a heavy financial -burden and a badge of inferiority borne by the Hindu; it also stimulated conversions to Islam." Sounds like he was spot on. Cool.
I saw his attempt to make that argument, but It doesn't fly that somehow the Koran is more holy to Muslims than the bible is to Christians. I think he's wrong again. There have been countless Imams that have come out and pointed out that the fanatical interpretation of the Koran isn't the most accurate one. There are passages in the Koran that speak out specifically against murder. That is in the Koran too, yet these terrorists don't latch on those passages.
I think he means that the Koran is more definitive in its call for violence than the Bible is, so the claims that it is misinterpreted are less convincing than similar arguments made for the Bible.
ok...i am a christian...and i will readily admit that the bible isn't revered in christian circles as the koran is in islamic circles. not even close. for one, there are tons of christians who see the bible as merely some cool stories...or they do not interpret the events to be literal events...that kind of thinking would not be shared with muslims concerning the koran. second...the book itself is treated with reverence...there is a story of a christian missionary in a muslim country who was exectued for stomping up and down on a bible on the ground. the bible is still revered in the muslim culture, because jesus is treated as a significant prophet...he was killed for doing that. his point was that the book itself is not holy..it's the concepts behind it and God, himself, who is holy. There have been countless Imams that have come out and pointed out that the fanatical interpretation of the Koran isn't the most accurate one. There are passages in the Koran that speak out specifically against murder. That is in the Koran too, yet these terrorists don't latch on those passages.
"This is not to say that Islam is a cacophony of divergent interpretations - far from it. By and large there is much less diversity of opinions on the fundamentals of faith and practice than, for example, in Christianity. Those who try their hand at interpretation have to undergo a great deal of training to enter into the Koran's world of discourse. Moreover, this training is accompanied by the embodiment of the Koran through recitation and ritual. The Koran possesses an obvious power to transform those who try to approach it on its own terms. This is precisely what Islam is all about - submission to the will of God as revealed in the Koran - but this is not simply a voluntary submission." -from THE KORAN by Sachiko Murata & William C. Chittick (quran.org) I believe this is his point.
this is so interesting...there are so many parallels between the church in the middle ages with it's call to the uneducated masses to seek blood for the name of christ in the crusades and islam of today throughout much of the world...it's this sorta, "well we, as the religious leaders, REALLY know what these books say...and you should go out and kill because that's what it's telling you to do!" it took the reformation to change Christianity...wonder what it will take for Islam??
Any scholar can tell you that Christianity has been the bloodier religion of the two... Hundreds of years of civil wars, the Crusades, the persecution of Jews, Inquisitions and witchhunts, all swept away with the blink of the eye because many of the nations that housed those attrocities are industrialized nations today. In the United States, a woman is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes. Since the US is a predominantly Christian nation, I guess it's Christianity that has to bear the brunt of the crimes commited by a minority of men. Christianity doesn't condone the crime of rape. Christianity didn't exactly condone slavery either, but you had several God fearing Christians owning slaves a couple hundred years ago too. Being in such a "peaceful religion", it didn't factor into their conscience of treating a human being like property. There will be a time of change in Muslim countries. If only because they will be forced to change in a new political and economic setting. But there has always been a deep mistrust for Western countries and "Western ideas." Declaring war and forcing our values upon supposedly Muslim nations is ironic as the article claiming "that Islam is a religion of violence, martyrdom, and conversion by the sword." Yeah...instead of the sword, we, living in a Christian land, convert by bullets.
HayesStreet, I would think that everyone on this board agrees that FGM is horrific and should be stopped. FGM is now illegal in many African nations. It is mostly being practiced "underground". Your problem is that you are mixing it with a religion and turning this discussion into a war with Islam. This is the mistake you are making.
I would think so. Although some of the posts that talk about 'getting perspective' don't seem to. Nope. I disagree. Although the practice has been banned in some countries (but then lifted as in Egypt), the main proponents are no longer governments, but religious and cultural authorities. Among them are many Islamic authorities. Hence the general idea of the thread. The same point is true of terrorism from so-called radical fundamentalists. Very few, if any, GOVERNMENTS will openly support these terrorists. Mainly because they don't want to be bombed back to the stone age, or simply removed from power ala the Taliban. But many Islamic authorities are vocally inciting Muslims to attack the US and the West, and their people. Hence the general idea of the thread. Islam, as practiced in many places, is not our friend and is antithetical to many of our beliefs. And if that is true, then we should be working against Islam.
My original post is speaking of Islam as practiced today. How many people were killed in the Spanish Inquisition is not relevant to that discussion. Most of 'Western civilization' is not ruled by religious authority any longer. That is not true of the Islamic civilization. Uh, sexual assault is not endorsed by Christianity (at least not any church I've ever been in - you can point out which one if you want to elaborate). On the other hand, a child has her clitoris sheared off with a sharp object every 15 seconds, many under the rationale that it is the will of Allah. Big difference. How is that relevant to secular Western civilization today? How is that relevant to the question of whether or not Islam should be opposed. I hope you are correct. Yeah, I imagine so. And its not all because of the crusades. Much of it has to do with the conflict between a secular society and a religious one. Life is full of irony. But I am not talking about a crusade to bring all people under the power of a Christian god. I'm talking about the conflict between modernity and Islam. And I don't remember advocating invasion of every Muslim country, although military power might be part of the equation.
As far as the Koran goes, it states that whoever murders one innocent murders all of humanity. The terrorists plain and simple are going against the Koran when they perform their terrorist actions. Changing the examples slightly let's look at the Rocket career of Hakeem the Dream. Was Hakeem more or less peaceful after seriously dedicating his life to Islam?
I'm going to have to assume that a lack of a formal education and a lower standard of living is more a culprit in continuing these ghastly traditions and mythical beliefs more than what Islam supposedly tells their religious authorities to do. The majority of the countries that still practices this are practically piss poor or are in pockets where tribal rulers have more power than the government. A higher standard of living usually means a better education and would probably end this practice in light of all the pain and suffering a woman would endure. Of course, there aren't any guarantees, but it would be harder for the practice to hide under the guise of Islam. A big difference indeed. But there's the rationale that women have been treated as second class citizens which up until lately (up to opinion) it was promoted and endorsed by the church. Sexual assault is the most extreme case but how would we prevent this if we can't get at the root of the problem? And what is exactly the root of the problem of FGM? Let's say we were to magically eliminate Islam around the world but the people still live in substandard living conditions. Would we also eliminate FGM, a practice that predates Islam, or would it be continued in some other religious fashion? The title was more to catch the reader's attention then... I am to assume that we impose sanctions on governments then (or possibly tons of education pamphlets that could kill anything it lands on )? I see another irony right there. We punish the government for what the people do. Other countries get mad. We punish the people for what the government does (a popular misconception on our UN sanctions against Iraq), and other countries get mad. Right now, the idea of war sounds a little better.
Hey Hayes, Here is the one passage that I was talking about. I am in no way an authority on the Quran, but based on the little I have read so far, I don't see a violent religion, rather I see a reasonable way of life, with more instructions on how to lead life, not some mystic jibberish. I think that thats another big problem that the "religious" leaders have decided that its upto them to tell what to belief, whereas a regular joe can pick it up and understand it. It really isn't THAT vague or incomprehensible. Anyways, here's the lil passage. I'm still in the process of reading it, and as I find out more, I'll post it (I'm starting a lil before where its relevant): "They will ask thee of the new moons. Say: 'They are periods fixed for mans service and for the pilgrimage.' There is no piety in entering your houses at the back, but piety consists in the fear of God. Enter your houses then by their doors; and fear God that it may be well with you. And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice: And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels. But if they desist, then verily God is gracious, merciful." It's pretty clear from this passage that you only resort to killing if you have been provoked, you should never be the perpetrator. And as someone noted before, to kill a person is like you have killed the entire human race. Suicide is forbidden: you are not allowed to imitate an act only God can commit, the act of taking your life. That said, I also agree that there is a lot that is wrong with how Islam is practiced and portrayed, but again it is NOT the religion that is at fault. --rockit
i'm a muslim and muslim students in my country have to take one islamic subject every year of their primary and secondary education. never in all those years that i have been thought that FGM is the will of Allah. hear it from one of the muslims in an islamic country thats standard of living and the average education is comparable to your own rather than some interpretations of islam from someone who cuts little girls in dark huts. why do you bother listening to these crazy mother fu*kers you've never met or came in contact with when there's enough rational minded muslims here telling you FGM is not in Islam? military power is gonna educate backwards people to the dangers of FGM? hahaha dumbass. and i clicked the thread title with absolutely no idea it was about FGM. this must be one of those smart witty tittles that must be too intelligent for my comprehension. yeah fu*k off
Hey fba34, There is no need to resort to name calling ... its his opinion, and if you can, try and change his mind if you're sure you're right. He isn't being unreasonable (well, maybe a little ), regardless ... no need to act stupid --rockit
But it is the Christians in the Bosnia situation that were slaughtering Muslim civilians. That is modern day, and the more violent govt. forces there are those of the Christians.
even though my primary and secondary education didn't teach FGM is the will of Allah, it did teach me its okay to call people names and its not stupid doing so. its only stupid if you call em in real life and the guy can beat you up. so this is safe and not stupid.
