Well, a 'war' does not necessarily have to be an invasion. I've got no problem crushing the little countries (although I was originally talking about 'civilizations' not countries) and use whatever influence be it economic or cultural for those we cannot militarily intervene in.
I said 'as practiced.' Whether the 'true Islam' supports the practice or not could be part of an education plan to deal with this instead of 'invading' as so many fear, but it is not relevant since Islamic officials (Caliphs) not only condone but advise for the practice to continue.
You know, there are plenty of countries who are absolutely apalled by the fact that we still put minors to death in America and, up until a recent ruling, mentally r****ded people. Hell, the death penalty alone puts us in a boat with countries we consider "the axis of evil." Besides, if you want to go to war with Islam, you want to round up the approximate 3 million Muslims in America and burn down the 1300 mosques that exist here while we're at it?
Well, as FGM is quantified as over 100 million women having body parts chopped off, I'll stand by starting with getting rid of this practice. We can worry about Augusta's membership policy somewhere down the road. We have female officials throughout the government, and will no doubt have a female President soon enough. And in all seriousness, maybe we SHOULD have a 'war on sexism' in this country, although I know for a fact that few men would stand up in this society and say "We should cut off women's clitorises so we don't have to take viagra." Or "so we can make sure you're a virgin." Or "because you clitoris will poison me if it touches my penis." If you think this country IS the same as that then we disagree.
FGM is not practiced (as far as I know) by Muslims in this country. As someone else pointed out, there are plenty of Islamic scholars who say this is NOT integral to Islam. As far as the death penalty, most of the world's population (China, the US, Russia, India, all Islamic countries) have the death penalty.
I agree I'm not a fan of FGM. But as was pointed out that isn't part Islam, but tribal tradition that has been maintaned and coopted by many Muslims in Africa. I don't really think this country is on a level of disrespecting the rights of females anywhere close to FGM. I was just saying that it isn't all Muslims that agree with that, or even oppress women, since Indonesia has a female President.
So Hayes -- do you really wat to be "at war" with Islam or do you want to fight the practice of female genital mutilation? Those are two VERY different things.
Its not just Muslims in Africa, although its is MOST widely practiced in Africa, and not just by Muslims (as I clearly stated in the first post). The fact is that Islam is a major factor in its practice.
Well, this is one example of many differences. I'm using it to illustrate a broader point. If other civilizations practices are antithetical to our own beliefs about what is right, SHOULD we oppose them? Too many straight non-interventionists/moral relativists on this board for my taste. I this is a good example for people to think about when trying to figure out if its OK just because its part of another culture/religion. And as I've said, Islam is the justification for entrenchment of this practice in many areas. The Spanish Inquisition was not commanded from the Bible, and I would have fought Catholics over that. So I've got no problem fighting to change Muslims who practice or endorse this.
Hayes, As far as I know, I've never heard of any 'caliphs' advise people to exercise FGM. I personally didn't even know what it was until I took a Human Sexuality class in college. Some links to back this up: http://www.mwlusa.org/pub_fgm.html http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_circ.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm http://www.minaret.org/fgm-pamphlet.htm
There are also tribal countries in Africa that practice mutilations of all kinds. They aren't Muslim. And, if it isn't integral to Islam, why would you suggest going to war against that religion? If it really is only representative of a minority, I don't see your point. Where do you get your death penalty stats? From Amnesty International: <i>111 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice. - 74 countries and territories have abolished the death penalty for all crimes - 16 countries have abolished the death penalty for all but exceptional crimes such as wartime crimes - 21 retain the death penalty in law but have not carried out any executions for the past 10 years or more and are believed to have a policy or established practice of not carrying out executions - 84 other countries retain and use the death penalty, but the number of countries which actually execute prisoners in any one year is much smaller - More than three countries a year on average have abolished the death penalty for all crimes in the past decade. - Over 30 countries and territories have abolished the death penalty for all crimes since 1990. They include countries in Africa (examples include Angola, Cote d'Ivoire, Mauritius, Mozambique, South Africa), the Americas (Canada, Paraguay), Asia (Hong Kong, Nepal) and Europe (Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Lithuania, Poland, Turkmenistan, Ukraine). - Since 1985, over 40 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or, having previously abolished it for ordinary crimes, have gone on to abolish it for all crimes. During the same period only four abolitionist countries reintroduced the death penalty. One of them - Nepal - has since abolished the death penalty again; one, the Philippines, has resumed executions, but there have been no executions in the other two (Gambia, Papua New Guinea). - <b>In 2001, 90 percent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the USA.</b> In China, the limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 2,468 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher. At least 139 executions were carried out in Iran. In Saudi Arabia, 79 executions were reported, but the total may have been much higher. Sixty-six people were executed in the USA. - Seven countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime - Congo (Democratic Republic), Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, USA and Yemen. <b>The country which carried out the greatest number of known executions of child offenders was the USA (17 since 1990).</b></i> So, our allies in the death penalty are China (a communist country), Iran (part of the "axis of evil") and Saudi Arabia (where many terrorists are trained and funded, supposedly). You can add Nigeria, Pakistan and Yemen to that list for underage executions. In essence, all the Islamic groups who are being decried here share company with us when it comes to their use of executions, particularly when it comes to children. Interesting.
Female Genital Mutilation truly is a heinous act, that cannot be justified. The truth is that is was a custom before Islam mainly in Africa, and is still in practice in remote areas. I have ventured all over the muslim world, and not on simply a superficial level. I have seen oppressed women, and many countries in which women seem to be revered and respected more than I have ever seen living all of my life in the United States. To characterize over 25% of the worlds population in that fashion is ignorance of the diversity of cultures within the Islamic world. There are muslims nations from Bosnia to Bulgaria to Turkey to the Arab World to Parts of China to Indonesia to Africa. Even the "arab" world is but a fraction of muslims in the world. I believe less than 20% of muslims in the world actually reside in the middle east. The Arab nations such as Lebannon, Egypt, Syria and even much of the Palestinian population is Christian. But then the "Muslim" world could look at the Western World i.e America and Western Europe with the same clouded vision with the basis that the west has higher divorce rates, cases of Aids, lack of moral culture in their eyes, single parent families, rampant homosexuality, legal abortions, and child abuse. They could then judge us on those basis' just as we are. Though I think the practice is disgusting, imagine how they feel about abortions? Killing a baby before it is born? Versus, what they consider "maintaining" chastisty of a woman. Perspective is a dangerous thing.
I guess you're in too big a hurry to contradict me to see my point. I'll say it again. Islam, as practiced in these countries.....as practiced in these countries, is responsible for FGM continuing. Its origin predates Islam, as you'll find looking at some of rockit's sites, but has been coopted and propogated by local Islamic officials through Africa and the Middle East. Nothing in your Amnesty International quote contradicts what I said.
Can't speak to your personal experience. Religioustolerance etc will only say FGM is NOT integral to the 'true Islam' but that does nothing to my contention that 'as practiced' Islam is the justification in many cases.
Maybe a better supposition for your thread, considering all of the steam that has been taken out of it by posters across the political and religious spectrum, would be "We should place significant diplomatic and economic pressures on communities throughout the world who use religion as an excuse to disfigure and oppress women through painful forms of torture." That, however, is a far cry from "If we are not at war with <b>Islam</b>, why not?"
One every 15 seconds is not some practice only happening in 'remote areas' Khan. Never said anything about Muslims only being in the Middle East. Yes, and Asia cultures could look at us and wonder what is wrong with child prostitution. That don't make it right. So are you saying Muslims do support FGM? So is relativism.
Jeff, I would not have any problem with this as a platform for action at all. This is only the first issue, and not sure what you mean about 'taking steam out.' Seems to me most posters agree its a heinous practice that should be stopped.
Hey, If Islam is the justification ... and people are ignorant to realize that the religion itself doesn't call for it ... why would you go after Islam?? Go after the folks who don't know any better, this has nothing to do with the religion. --rockit Oops, Jeff said the same thing ... just scrolled down and saw the new message