No, actually Hussein is paying families of killed Palestinian soldiers...not families of innocent children killed by Israeli soldiers...and by the way, there wouldnt be Israeli soldiers killing ANYONE if it werent for the suicide bombers initiating the conflict
Actually the money is set aside for martyrs and it does go to families of innocent children killed by Israeli soldiers. ANYONE who dies in the conflict with Israel gets the money. That goes for families of suicide bombers as well as families of innocent civilians killed by Israeli soldiers. I'm not defending the fund, but it should be presented fully and accurately.
No the Israeli settlements are illegal, and in clear violation of the 4th geneva convention. Again I'm not condoning suicide bombing at all. It's terrorism plain and simple. But there is a reason that so many people feel hopeless enough and are willing to die. They didn't spring up and haven't increased in recently for absolutely no reason at all. The means they use to fight the oppression is horrible, and I believe massive peaceful Ghandi style deomonstrations would do much more to get public sypmathy on their side, but because they are wrong in their means doesn't mean the other side isn't wrong also.
How is presenting the full story instead of just a part of it defending the payment? I stated originally that I believe that providing an incentive to suicide bombers is wrong.
NJRocket, I'm really not trying to anger you. I ask again how am I condoning suicide bombing when I've spoken against it? I'm just trying to understand your side of the discussion with this. I'm very respectful of your right to have a different opinion on the situation and to what degree different people are at fault. I can handle disagreement, and I'm not trying to piss anyone off, just to discuss the issues.
fair enough...my assessment of you "condoning" suicide bombings stems from the fact that you see the Israeli forces as being in the wrong as well. Now, while their RESPONSE to Palestinian attacks may not be appropriate at all times, there would be no response if there were no attacks. All of the bad blood is steming from the suicide bombings...thats where it starts...and its not like the bombing has been going on only since 9/11...its been going on for a very long time. Now I realize that Palestinians living in Israel get the short end of the stick...but think of it this way... If we had a problem in the US with suicide bombers and EVERY suicide bomber was of the same nationality (other than US), would you want those people living near your family...allowed in the same places...given the same rights?
F Blade...sorry for insinuating that you condone suicide bombing...Im fairly sure that is not the case...its just that this subject really gets to me. I lost upwards of 25 friends/business associates in the WTC (i know im not the only one...and i also know im lucky not to have lost family) and sat thru each and every wake/funeral/shiva call and its hard for me to not be so defensive. Its probably better that I stay away from this issue.
Sorry I didn't mean to give the impression that bad blood only comes from the Israeli forces. I believe there is plenty of blame to go to both sides. I will agree most Israeli force proportionate or disproportionate does come in response to suicide bombings. I do believe that much of Israeli policy is against things like the 4th geneva convention, international law, and various UN resolutions. But Palestinians who use terrorism and suicide bombings to achieve their goals regardless of which side started it are also in violation and inhumane in their actions as well. I honestly just wish both sides would try different tactics, because the tactics used both sides currently aren't helping either of them. Of course changing tactics at this point is much easier said than done. But hopefully peace will eventually be reached.
Glad to see you're keeping an open mind on this. I gave you three reasons why this is a racial issue and not a religious one. In response I get a unsupported blanket assertion. NJR, I realize you've lost friends as a result of terror bombings and I am sorry about that. But, I think you are allowing that experience warp your perception of the Israeli-Palestinian situation. Even so, I think I'll lay off for your sake. It looks to me that FranchiseBlade is doing a great job of defending my position without getting as impassioned about it as I may tend. But, first, let me deal with Roxran... Roxran, I gave 3 reasons why it was a racial issue and you responded to only one. We'll recap: (1) Some (not all) founders of Israel were driven to its creation by concerns common to those who are genetically Jewish; (2) The state of Israel defines citizenship by one's ethnic heritage -- specifically, you must show yourself to be descended from Jews (you do not have to be religiously Jewish yourself); (3) Israel does not allow a religious claim to Judaism to be any sort of credential in winning citizenship. In your response, you limited possible races to "Black, White, Brown, Yellow, [and] Red." I assume these are blacks, whites, either Hispanics or Indians, Asians and American Indians? I would suggest that perhaps your categories should be expanded somewhat. What's more, maybe they should not be characterized by a subtle shade to their skin pigmentation. You mention that Palestinians and Jews share the same race. They do; they're both Semites. However, they are distinguishable and, apparently, this difference is the source of a lot of persecution. But the difference between them is not very relevant. What is relevant is that the Jews define themselves as Jews racially. The Zionists of the early twentieth century wanted a country for their people and, within that, their people could practice their religion. This is why Israel bases their citizenship on one's ethnic heritage and not their religion. Forget for the moment, of course, that what you are implicitly arguing is that these things that would be inexcusable if they were racially prejudiced motivated are ok because they are religiously prejudiced.
For the sake of argument, let's assume the naked assertion that this is not racism, just unjust religious discrimination. A great principle to base a modern nation on. It is always sort of ironic to see Jewish Americans not wish the USA to be a Christian nation and urging separation of church and state here yet support the opposite type of state in Israel.
Why would that be? Please understand, in answering, that I'm not talking about racial Jewishness generally. I'm talking about it specifically in the framework of Zionism and of Israeli citizenship laws. France had rules (last I heard they've slackened some) that said you must show that an ancestor was French to claim citizenship. So -- as I'm sure mrpaige will point out -- French isn't a race, but, for purposes of immigration and citizenship, it was. Jewishness and Judaism have an unusually close relationship. This stems from an essential message of the religion that the Jews are the 'chosen people.' When you define your relationship with God in a racial/national way, this is bound to happen and a blurring of the lines between race and religion occurs. Islam and Christianity are more evangelical; they want everyone in their religion regardless of their heritage. This is why Islam can't be a race in the same way Jewishness can.
And none of your reasons mentions race at all. 1. Being genetically Jewish does not mean they are a separate race. They weren't a separate race to begin with and aren't now no matter how pure the lineage remains. 2. Ethnicity is not the same as race. The United States defines natural citizenship by one's ethnic heritage to a degree. If you are born to Americans, you're an American. That doesn't make "American" a race. 3. The United States could pass a law saying only those born to Americans can get citizenship but that wouldn't make "American" a race. Heck, I could pass a law that says only people with A+ blood type can be citizens of my new country (Paigetopia) and be really careful to only allow people with A+ blood mix together in my country. That wouldn't make us a separate race even though we're requiring a genetic component to become a citizen. Laws of state don't get to decide. I'll give you Israelis are an ethnicity but making them a race is pushing the accepted definitions of the word.
