Yet an administration in place now set the scene for this by rationalizing torutre, and attempting to justify it.
1. Here's the trick: THEY would say that about us. 2. Even if the guy is my mortal enemy, it is gut-wrenching. Here's the further challenge: what if he is indeed guilty and just didn't break? I heard an amazing quote from General Dwight D. Eisenhower the other day: (paraphrasing) "Well, if the American people didn't know why we were fighting this war, now at least they know who we were fighting..." Guess when he said this: while touring the Nazi death camps after liberating them. It is hard to relate to the horrors of war. I'm not sure that we are better off knowing them detail by detail, minute by minute. BTW, the blight of Hitler has not made the German people an affront to humanity (like gifford would insinuate T_J and I are)...
he wasn't murdered by the US. he was murdered by a murderer, and that murderer is being charged with a crime. his job as a US government employee is not an indictment of the entire military, government, or country. you may be ashamed of your country- i'm sad for the murdered man's family, but know his killer does not represent my values.
FranchiseBlade, you really are drifting over the extremist cliff with some of these statements you're making. Fortunately, you are safe in your den of liberals here. Try making the statements you are making to a mother or father of a US serviceman. See how long you last.
some more things to bear in mind: these events occurred in December 2002 and seven servicemen have been properly punished. Every detail published by the Times comes from a report done by the U.S. military, which did the investigating and the punishing. why is the times publishing this story now, 2 1/2 years after the fact? could it have anything to do with the MSM covering it's ass in the wake of the newsweek scandal?
I think the indictment of the military/ government/ country stems from the leadership of that military / government / country that has created an environment which fosters such crimes. There's just been too much of it. And it's consistent with the thinking behind Guatanimo etc. That the ends justify the means. Trader_Jorge diplomacy. Punishing individuals, after the fact, isn't a substitute for instilling a code of conduct -- even in volatile situations. And that's where leadership comes in....not to micromanage each incident, but to set the parameters under which decisions are made. So that isolated incidents can be reasonably seen as isolated -- rather than systemic. And I think the WH is vulnerable to strong criticism here. It's not just the crazy liberal press publicizing this stuff. It's the press from around the world. And to Muslim readership. Even if we can get the American press to only report the happy-news, we're not going to get that from the publications that are read in the areas of conflict. And since we're playing in their court...with goal to turn it all over to them...perhaps we should be trying to maintain their support.
i'm guessing most iraqis (yes, i know this occurred in afghanistan) have little problem with tortue of accused terrorists, particularly after bin laden's latest decree claiming killing of innocents is justified.
I have family currently serving in the Marines, and have made statements like these not only to his parents, but to him as well. There was some agreement and some disagreement to varying degrees, but nobody was offended, and understood the simple exchange of viewpoints. My nephew understood that it is my care for him and other soldiers like him that plays a part in shaping my views.
I think people just don't understand this. Individual Americans are no better or worse than the individual Muslims, there will always be a few bad apples. But we have a better system, that's why those bad apples in the military are being punished. You can't expect everyone to obey the rules/laws, that's why we have the checks and balances built into our system. These kind of cases happens in every country, most of them don't have the same level of media transparency so you don't hear about them.
Well if you made those comments to a couple of ex-Rangers that I know, you'd be eating through a straw for the rest of your life.
We do have a better system. A much better system. But for our system to work, we have to be willing to unflinchingly condemn abuses in the system. This means in depth coverage and agressive reporting. And it also means examining the issue of whether this type of abuse is systemic, rather than just a "few bad apples." I'm not quite ready to come to a conclusion on that question, but I think there is more than enough evidence to warrant serious investigation by an independent actor. Not the military investigating itself again.
ooooooh I'm shaking in my boots. Nothing more intimidating than a threat over the internet, especially when it is the threat of a couple people that you know. Well I can get my ranger's dads to beat up your ranger's dads. I would make the coments I made to anyone who wanted to talk about it. I would be willing to bet that unless they were mindless, idiots they wouldn't result to violence for me expressing my beliefs.
It wasn't a threat, just an observation. Please, slickvik is the only poster that actually threatens violence. With plastic swords.
I'm suprised that so many of you are suprised about this kind of behaviour. It's not like it's new. The U.S. military has been abusing prisoners since it's inception. So has every other military on the planet. I would also suggest that the U.S. military abuses prisoners, in general, much less than most other militaries that actually have prisoners (so that rules Canada out - but don't think for a second that some Canadian redneck guard wouldn't kick some prisoner when he's down either). The main difference is that were actually hearing about the abuses now because the media is so pervasive in everything these days. Not to mention they use much less discretion then they used to (i.e. many people in the media new Kennedy had mistresses, they just chose not to report it). Actually the higher-ups should be commended for allowing the media so much access to make it harder for people to get away with such abuses. But when you put rednecks in charge of people they despise what do you expect? I know, we should expect better but whenver people are involved you're going to get deviants. Also, most prisoners are not abused. But you just don't want to dwell on that, do you? The people trying to blame Bush are pathetic partisans trying to find any excuse to blame the President whenever they can. It's pretty sad.
you guys think that everyone that the U.S in Afghan arrests is a terrorist?.... its not like they go through trials....to treat people like this who may be innocent is sad.... i think its pathetic....
It is a good thing the founding fathers had the forsight for installing the current judicial system, otherwise with people like T_J in charge who knows what kind of police state we would be getting in the USA.
