If the starting lineup is not . . . ill lose my mind

and can we stop with the hate for alston howard hayes head. they played as well as they could this year. gave effort every night. hate on van gundy if you want to, but the players played as hard as they could.

 

So if you haven't seen Scola play, who's to say that he's not better than Hayes?

 

Thank for answering. I must say first that if you check back my posts, I don't hate Hayes. I like him! as a backup. I also liked him as the starter last season without better options.

It's understandable that Hayes want more than what Morey is willing to give, but now the initial FA frenzy is over, other teams don't miss out on signing other FA targets if their offer to Hayes is matched by the Rockets. So far, we haven't heard about a team making an offer while it doesn't hurt them if the Rockets match it. The lack of interest around the league is appalling.

I'm also surprised to know that Hayes is so firm on his demands. As you said, RFAs have little power. Hayes acting like he has the power when actually he has little suggests one thing, what the Rockets offered is too little to be acceptable.

Yes, Morey can love Hayes as a player and want to bring him back. I have no problem with that. But it doesn't mean that Morey would tell others that Hayes will be starting next season. It works against signing Hayes at good price, and it's disrespectful to Adelman. I doubt someone as smart as Morey would do it.

The most likely scenerio is that Hayes wants starter money and years, while the Rockets offered backup money. Meanwhile, other teams aren't that interested to make an offer even if it doesn't hurt them to do so. Correct me if I am wrong, thanks!

 

Talk is cheap, none of these guys even got offers, just like Chuck Hayes. A team would have to make a major risk of overpaying for Chuck Hayes not to get the Rockets to match, and Hayes would be stupid to sign a low ball contract with someone else the Rockets would match at less than what the Rockets would pay on their own. It makes perfect sense for Hayes and the Rockets to take their time with the market, and other teams not to fool with him. Besides I think Hayes value is greater to the Rockets than most other teams, most other teams don't have Yao and Tmac.

Hell, Matt Barnes hasn't even got offers and he is unrestricted. Maybe they know he will take his best offer back to GS and they will beat it so they are not wasting their time. You can't read into that GS or other teams don't want him (or Pietrus for that matter). You can't read into that we don't want Hayes back. Maybe we told him you are coming back, will pay you 1.5 mil a year now, but you are free to shop around. Sooner or later they will settle.

I like Hayes as a back-up as well. But right now he is the best starter until proven otherwise. His numbers proved he was more effective than Howard or Swift or Battier (in the PF spot) in our best lineup, that means something. Scola hasn't proven he is better than those guys. Hopefully he is, but it can't be assumed from non-NBA performance. Different level of athleticism than any other level. Further, even if Scola is the better player, it doesn't mean he should start if Hayes does a better job of protecting Yao early and it lets Scola get in at a more oppertune time. Ginobili hasn't started most his career either (see Bruce Bowen comment below).

I am pretty sure Hayes will stay a Rocket and get signed for between just under 2 mil to 3 something mil. And it would be foolish for another team to offer a multiyear deal at over 4 a year to him. You don't want to pay offensively deficient players that much (see Jeff Foster, Reggie Evans--even worse offensive players paid MLE levels). Heck Bruce Bowen's only makes 4.1 mil, despite being very offensively limited overall he is the best perimeter defender in the league and at least has a good corner 3 point shot.

 

Sounds to me like Bonzi is going to be on the floor.

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amen...

 

In other words, it seems no team in the NBA, including the Rockets, are offering Hayes starter money like around 4 or 5 mils a year(even that is a lil low for a solid starter), which also means that Hayes is a backup pf and will be paid like a backup pf.

Glad to know that you like Hayes as a backup as well. So we have that front settled. What remains is if Scola is better than an NBA backup. I think right now Hayes is the proven player, but it will be very quick for Scola to exceed him. Scola is regarded as one of the players ready to start in the NBA immediately by experts, adding fuel to fire he has the language barrier already conquered, he's a 27 mature adult, played and proved himself against NBA competition on the world stage, has no critical weakness in his game(like VSpan's broken shot). Most of all, not a home sick Greek. Sorry, can't help it. Throw in the inclination of our new coach on his offensive approach. I don't always agree with experts but I don't see why this time they are wrong.

 

That's just your guess, right.

 

This entire thread cracks me up. This has turned inta a Hayes fest. Why don't we talk about a guy named Hayes who shoots better. Remember Gabby Hayes? The old guy with the turkey neck from all those John Wayne westerns.

There is a reason no team is beating down the door for Hayes in free agency. He is what he is. An energy player who makes hustle plays and gets hustle rebounds. A more athletic Ryan Bowen if you will without the size. He is not a great rebounder in traffic or a lock down defender. He will not score 10 points in an entire season from beyond 3 feet. He is a terrible free throw shooter. Contrary to what people think, No GM is going to rush out to give anything that touches their exception for Hayes. Morey doesn't have to warn people off. Most people who fit Hayes abilities are fighting for jobs in the Rookie review. All that said, I am a Hayes fan and want him back on the team. But, I am a realist who played basketball for a long time. There was a poster earlier describing the new offense and it really doesn't work with hayes for the same reason Van Gundy's offense didn't work with hayes; if you don't have to gaurd hayes, there are always 2 people to guard Yao and T-mac. Every offense works good in the regular season for the first 3 quarters. Nobody expends energy on D until it is winning time. Your job is to keep the game close and go get it in the fourth quarter. All your Hayes and Alstons are exposed in the fourth Quarter during the regular season and stick out like a sore thumb in the playoffs as most teams start playing every quarter like it is the fourth. Take San Antonio for example. You will probably see the same thing happen here from Rick as you saw from Popovich this year. They started Elson for much of the year, their 7 foot version of Hayes, and when it got down to the fourth quarter, unless serious foul trouble, Elson was nowhere to be found and Orberto was in the game to keep the defense honest so Timmy could take over. In the playoffs, Pryuen started as many games and almost had as much playing time in the clutch as Elson. Like most great coaches, Pop realizes you can't play 4 on 5 in the NBA and win in the playoffs no matter how big a hustle player the other guy is. JVG never got it which is why we struggled so hard to close games with Alston and hayes on the floor. There was only so much Yao and T-mac can do with only one shooter in the game to space the floor.

 

Hayes is yes in general a back-up quality PF. That said he plays better than that for the Rockets because he compensates for a lot of lacking qualities in the team (front line quickness, hustle).

Think of it this way, if Juwan Howard went to Europe he would score at least 15PPG and shoot well over 60%. Probably very similar to Scola numbers. Howard is certainly a more individually skilled player than Chuck Hayes and a better player for most teams. Howard in fact played more minutes for the Rockets than Chuck Hayes. But Chuck Hayes started because he was much better protection for Yao Ming. Assuming Scola and Hayes split the bulk of the PF minutes next year, if Scola proves foul prone and more importantly getting Yao to pick up fouls on his man--very possible propositions as he has limited play against NBA type PFs, again it makes sense to start Hayes 1st. Might be better for Yao Ming (most importantly), but also Scola himself, even if Scola usually closes. Let Scola be our Ginobili and Barbosa while Hayes functions as our Elson/Finley (who gets replaced by Manu when it matters) or James Jones to keep those 6th men fresh and ready to go in at the oppertune time.

Now if Scola proves he can handle the offensive and defensive load, great, but I am pretty skeptical right away, particularly defensively.

Oh, and too the guy who claims Hayes is an atrocious shooter/scorer. Not true, he is a bad offensive player. But there are worse, Jeff Foster, Reggie Evans, Etan Thomas and Ben Wallace just to name a few, the former of the 3 many posters around here actually want.

 

I can't speak to that posters individual knowledge, but it would hard for a GM with a quarter of a brain to not know this.

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607HOU2.HTM

Top Five-Man Floor Units
# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Alston-McGrady-Battier-Hayes-Yao 525 1145 876 +269 28 6 82.3
2 Alston-McGrady-Battier-Howard-Mutombo 512 1004 940 +64 23 20 53.4
3 Alston-Head-Battier-Hayes-Yao 121 248 205 +43 10 3 76.9
4 Alston-McGrady-Battier-Howard-Yao 119 271 231 +40 15 6 71.4
5 Alston-Head-McGrady-Battier-Yao 116 291 264 +27 14 11 56.0
6 Alston-Head-Battier-Howard-Yao 113 257 231 +26 14 8 63.6
7 Alston-Head-McGrady-Howard-Mutombo 101 226 186 +40 16 10 61.5
8 Alston-Head-Battier-Hayes-Howard 90 185 194 -9 9 13 40.9
9 Alston-Head-Battier-Howard-Mutombo 88 157 191 -34 7 13 35.0
10 Alston-McGrady-Battier-Hayes-Mutombo 67 136 114 +22 8 11 42.1
11 Alston-Head-McGrady-Battier-Hayes 58 120 133 -13 8 12 40.0
12 Alston-Head-McGrady-Hayes-Howard 58 135 129 +6 10 12 45.4
13 Alston-McGrady-Battier-Hayes-Howard 56 121 117 +4 9 8 52.9
14 Head-Wells-McGrady-Battier-Hayes 51 105 93 +12 5 3 62.5
15 Alston-Head-Snyder-Howard-Yao 47 89 97 -8 4 5 44.4
16 Alston-Head-Wells-Hayes-Howard 47 99 76 +23 7 5 58.3
17 Alston-Head-McGrady-Battier-Mutombo 45 104 87 +17 8 5 61.5
18 Alston-Head-Wells-Battier-Hayes 44 79 76 +3 5 6 45.4
19 Alston-Head-McGrady-Hayes-Mutombo 41 92 77 +15 7 6 53.8
20 Alston-Head-McGrady-Battier-Howard 41 104 99 +5 7 9 43.7

 

If you honestly believe that chuck hayes will be a starter in a skill and offensively oriented System that adelman will bring, then you're kidding you'reself.

In a system where defense is you're cornerstone, you can get away with having a hustle player like him playing as you're starter.

Noway under a coach like adelman who likes he's big's to be able to spread the floor and be able to be able to be a good passer.

 

Again, hayes thrived under a defense oriented gameplan under gundy. that system played into he's strengths. noway under adelman he will be a successfull starter or as good as those stats.

 

Well Adelman better change his philosophy then. Considering the last championship teams have started B. Wallace, Bowen, while Miami closed out with Payton, Rick Fox, Ron Harper.

Also Buck Williams (eventually) and Mario Elie were primarily defensive oriented guys that flourished under Adelman although Elie did not start.

 

However, you gotta remember those teams were both offensively and dfensively good. defense will not be a foreign concept whatsoever, but we will put alot more onus on offense. thats where hayes will not be as effective as he was under gundy.

Thats just the way rick coaches. he has been to the nba finals 3 times to the WCF's and if it wasnt for a heartbraking horry daggar, he would have taken kings to a title in 2002. they would have destroyed philly in the finals.

Oh BTW, we got our bowen, or Fox in battier.

 

adelman has been to the finals twice and to the western conference finals 3 times. van gundy has been to the finals once and to the eastern conference finals twice. this is clearly an up grade. but hayes will get only a little above the minimum salary....but he will start over scola to start the year

 

or is it 4 times to the western conference finals for coach a?

 

Don't you think the coach will decide who starts based on his impressions from training camp?

 

Best starting line up would be

1.James
2.Tmac
3.Battier
4.Scola
5.Yao

Francis is no longer close to starter material in this league anymore and should be playing 10 mins max a game.

 

Thank you...i seem to be in the minority here with liking and wanting rafer still..i just dont know why everyone hates this guy so much..its like he was the only reason that we couldnt advance from the 1st round..he had a pretty good year i dont see what the complaining is all about...hayes is a stud...luther was clutch in the regular season..some of the games he won for us could have been the difference b/t home court advatage..so i ono i just think we should appreciate what they did instead of complaining cuz they did damn well for the team we had