You are exaggerating. Those acts are minuscule considering the number of Muslims in the world in poverty and opression. I am not minimizing any human deaths, but you are painting this picture like Islam is releasing a flood of murderers. No, it's not. Opression and poverty are rampant in the Middle East and Africa, so terrorists are born. The religion they are born with, is Islam. So it's the logical link. Your logical reasoning is poor. You can't attribute those acts to Islam without factoring in opression and poverty (and ultimately illiteracy).
You have constantly been trying to downplay and relativize terror in the name of Islam for years. This is not new. Instead of recognizing that it is a problem inherent in the way your religion is practiced nowadays, you are in denial. Fact of the matter is, if you enter an underground train in any major European city, a terror attack is not out of the question nowadays. And the only common link is that the terrorists would be Islamists who take "death to non-believers" literally. And that is right there in your book. And yes, there are Quran schools that release floods of murderers. It's the truth, as much as you try to downplay it.
ok..here goes. thanks again, in advance. i hope this won't make you defensive...I can promise I'm not attacking....just trying to understand. I have taken the time to read through the Koran...almost all of it, now. [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. So what's the larger context of sura 9, here? Is this direct command to believers, today? It seems to be saying that Islam is to be forced by violent compulsion. [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. Ok, yikes. [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. Please tell me this is not to be interpreted such that a Muslim is not to befriend me...because I have Muslim friends, and I'd hate to think they're breaking a commandment from God....but I think I hate worse the notion that people aren't all to be loved equally and ridiculously so by God and by us as his followers. These are a start. I don't want to pretend you're a theological expert or a Muslim cleric, so I realize how unfair it is to present this all to you to respond to. Again...I really appreciate you taking the time....and trust me, saying, "I don't know" is a fine answer!!! I don't expect you to have all the answers, and the truth is my concept of God is one where I'd think you're a liar or really misplaced if you said you did have all the answers regarding him!
lol Look, if you believe these things to be factual, then what are we doing here? You think you're going to convince me of the crap you're spewing when I AM Middle Eastern and live in the Middle East while you are sitting pretty somewhere in Europe or the U.S. and your only claim to knowing anything is television and internet. The think that bothers me about you is that you are especially narrow-minded. You want to believe this and you are exactly the type that preaches your biased crap everywhere. Don't think that I didn't notice back when the bull**** Islamic website links were posted, you took it as fact before I clarified that it was a pack of lies. You WANTED to believe it and you did before it was verified. I don't know why there's such hatred in you, but it's clear that nothing good can come from us arguing, so I'm out. Have fun
Yes, and we are under threat from Islamist terrorists here in Europe. That is why I now have to go through long security lines every time I want to board a plane. It was not like that before your fellow fundamentalists embarked on their mission. You didn't clarify anything. If anything, your constant attempts to downplay your fellow fundamentalists' acts only confirm that for too many people of Muslim faith from the Middle East, there is no willingness to confront the problems with the way their faith is practiced and interpreted by many especially in that region nowadays. Instead, you choose the path of denial. Try to face the truth instead of hiding behind the dogmatic crap you have been brainwashed with.
Thanks Max, I was just going to say that you should take my knowlege as expert. I have a background that Itook Islamic classes for 12 years in high school and my closest friend of 18 years got religious (he used to do the call to prayer on campus) and unreligious so he has a lot of knowledge and I'll ask him to help me out as well as I'm staying at his place this weekend. There are things about Allah we don't know, obviously. But more importanly there are things about the Qura'an we don't know and wish the prophet PBUH was here to explain. I'll give it my best shot from what I know and sources though, and hopefully it's useful: On Sura 5, Verse 1 through 7: I am torn about explaining this myself as I found a terriffic explanation online. It is also noted that the previous and next Sura serve as context for this Sura, but that would require loooooots of background. In summary, the order is about those polytheists who had treaties with the Islamic government (for protection in exchange for a tax). Their contracts ran another 4 months, some more, some less. The beginning of the Sura explains basically that those treaties should be honored as long as they honored it and that is because Allah loves fairness. Now, the order to slay them (etc etc) is made to those who had such treaties but had aided others against the Prophet PBUH in attacking him and his people. To put it in perspective, it the United States is protecting Saudi Arabia in exchange for an oil as part of a 4-month agreement, both sides should honor this contract for 4 months. If it does not violate the terms of the agreement for Saudi Arabia to give Al Qaeda information about the U.S. and aid them in attacking the U.S., then the contract should still be honored. However, when the contract is over, Saudi Arabia will endure the wrath of the U.S. for their actions or go back to the agreement and do it the right way. So it is not an order against all polytheists today. It is a story which serves as precedence in the law. Allah is telling this story and presenting it to us as an example in an instruction booklet. Here is the link for a very detailed explanation and if you still have questions about the explanation, feel free to ask those too: Sura 9
Hmm...sounds familiar. So the Saudis are allowed to help terrorists attack the US? I appreciate your attempts to answer Max' questions, though. Obviously, Max is less critical than I and makes an honest attempt to understand why Islam is the way it is today.
Sorry, submitted reply by mistake. On 9:29 There is a word I need to clarify here. The word "Hattaa" in Arabic can mean "until", "unless", or "even if". Also, subjection is a poor translation. The word used is much closer to modesty and humbleness than subjection. But in essense, Allah is still speaking within the context of the story I mentioned earlier. Still using those plolytheists from that specific time as a group... and he does not say kill them in this part. He says fight them. Summary: Right after giving the example of those polytheists who violated their treaties and helped others attack Islam, Allah says, for those who do not believe in so-and-so, you must FIGHT them (does not say kill) so that they pay the Jizya (means tax: law in the country at the time) and feel humbled. I understand some people don't like the idea of non-Muslims being taxed. But think of it this way: at that time, nationality was unimportant. People were segregated by religion, not nationality or race. Therefore, a non-Muslim is like a foreignor. For example, when people want visit Visas to the United States, they pay fees. When they want a labor visa, there are bigger fees. Green card, more fees. Etc, etc.. In that day and age, religion meant nationality. There is the land of Muslims, then out west there's the land of christians, etc etc.. So the Jizya is seen as somewhat of a foreign tax. Not to mention that non-Muslims on Muslim land were protected by Muslims (specific order in Sura 9 to protect those who have treaties.) On 9:30 I don't know what to explain here. I'll say that it is clear and this is a source of conflict for Muslims with Christians and Jews. It is just a belief that comes as part of my faith. I can make one comment though. The translation, again, is poor. In the end it should read: they imitate (mirror) the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah fought them (as in, those who disbeleived); how they are turned away!
On[5:51]: Friends is again a poor word used. This is reffering to the Muslim Ummah (group/race/nationality/whatever) not taking Christian or Jewish Ummahs as allies. It's important to say (And I understand this may be offensive, but is required in the context) that Islam claims Jesus and Moses as messengers of Allah. That their religions were pure and then were corrupted by men (as explained in 9:30) and therefore we can't take them as allies in war. So basically, assuming the Muslim Ummah wants to do something, don't beforiend someone for your benefit. Their are morally swayed by unfortunate corruption of their texts and scripture, therefore morally we shouldn't befriend them for our benefit. If you take them as your friend neglecting the fact that they are corrupt, then you are one of them by virtue of basically seeling your values and beleifs for a buck. As a simplified example, like befriending a girl (whom you would not befriend otherwise) to get with her hot sister/friend. Ends justifying means theory. This does not mean Muslims can't befriend Christians and Jews. We can marry Christians and Jews, so how is it possible that we can't befriend them?
Okay, so you admit that the book you believe in and follow says "may Allah destroy Christians and Jews". Thank you for clarifying.
Notes: - I am a stern beleiver in texts being read in their original language. Arabic translates very poorly to English, which is why translations are not Qura'an. They are translations and should have disclaimers. There is trade-off because speaking Arabic becomes a bit central to Islam, but preservign the text in it's full meaning is moe important than the nuissance of learning a language at your own pace. - I am more than happy to expand on these or do more for you Max. I also understand that there will be touchy areas, but as long as you're comfortable with it, I am as well. - I'm using it as an excuse to brush up on the texts as well because I don't do it nearly as much as I should .
SJC, Really, you're getting on my nerves. As you can see, I'm more than happy to discuss criticisms of Islam, but you just seem to be angry and offensive. I'm going to respond to your comments but could we just please end this if you're not going to be civil about it? Thanks. 1) Boo-freakin-hoo. You think you're held up in an airport longer than I am? You may want to thank your people for arming the murder 300,000 Palestinians, attacking Iraq and Afghanistan, and setting up attacks on Iran. Way to target some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in the world rather than Al Qaeda themselves. Or did you not hear that Al Qaeda has NOTHING to do with any of those countries? Terrorists are rampant where oppression and poverty are rampant. I have the history of planet earth as proof. Do you have any opposing proof? If not, then there's no further discussion on this. No need to question anything else before questioning the source of the opression. 2) Saudi is not Islam. Nor have any of us seen any proof of such actions by Saudi. But even if they have, I don't think it helped nearly as much as the training that the U.S. secret service provided Osama Bin Laden. "Obviously, Max is less critical than I and makes an honest attempt to understand why Islam is the way it is today." Biggest understatement of the year. Thanks for your admission that you do not make an honest attempt to understand why Islam is the way it is today. Really lends credibility to your arguments. 3) No, if you weren't so biased you would have continued reading to see that I corrected it. If you don't believe me, select an arabic dictionary of your choice, I will find the words for you, show them to you, and then you can decide if I made it up as some grand scheme to rule the world. Anything else?
Hold on...you say I cannot judge all Muslims by the actions of some of them, but you go on to say that "my people" arm the murder [of] 300,000 Palestinians and attack Iraq and Afghanistan. Huh? Al Qaeda has nothing to do with these countries? What about the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan? Nice try - so you are basically saying these "poor people" have no other choice but to resort to terrorism? There are plenty of poor people who do not resort to terrorism. Those who resort to terrorism are the ones who claim to act in the name of Islam. Others don't. And the Islamists feel justified. They cite passages out of your book. And then you go and downplay it and act like nothing happened and it is just a reaction by these poor people. Ridiculous. Ah yes, the usual "it's your own fault" rhetoric. What did you correct? You admitted that the book you believe in and follow says "may Allah destroy Christians and Jews". That pretty much says it all.
1) It's because you are supporting those people. I am not supporting terrorists. Therefore, you are those people, but I am not a terrorist. Unless terrorist=muslim to you? Yes, but there is no need t destroy the entire country to take over a camp . Don't play dumb. 2) I am not saying. It is a matter of fact. It is not debatable. It is not an opinion. Poverty and oppression leads to vulnerability which makes it easier for terrorists to recruit. This is the same phenomenon that is inherent in drug trade or any other black market activity. You know this. Stop playing dumb. 3) It is. If you train the terrorist, then opress the people in his country.. what are you doing? You are training him and then giving him a country full of vulnerable kids who will do anything for a buck and some "fatherly" advice. 4) No I did not. Re-read the post and you will see that I said it's a poor translation and I re-wrote it. I will not quote it for you. Admit that you read what you wanted to read and you are mistaken. Stop lying and stop playing dumb.
The nations with a military presence in Afghanistan are not destroying it at all. They are trying to help rebuild it from the stone age your Taliban friends terrorized it back to to 2008. The non-fanatical people in that country, muslims or not, appreciate that. You are making up excuses. Terrorism is not an inevitable consequence of poverty. It is true that it makes it easier for terrorists to recruit. But where are these people recruited? In Quran schools. Poverty makes it easier for the preachers of hate to instigate hate. What's the common link between the preachers of hate? They are Islamists, and they cite passages like the one that jews and christians need to be destroyed. Ah, now you are showing your true colors - all blame lies with the USA, they trained the terrorists who are just poor vulnerable kids. Riiiiiight . Now he is getting aggressive. I read what it literally says, and nothing you wrote rebuked it.
1) Riiight. This is rebuilding Afghanistan? Why are you acting like a child? I mean, really, why are you acting like you don't know what you're saying is false? 2) If preaching hatred is the same everywhere, then isn't it true that it would only bear fruit where the listeners are easier to convince? Is it not true that it's easier to fool a villager who can't read or write versus someone who has access and knowledge of the internet, for example? You know this. 3) I didn't place all blame with the U.S.A. and everything I said was factual, and if I am wrong, I invite the correction. Show me. 4) Again, you are a liar. You did not read it. Everyone else has read it. Again, why are you behaving like a child? Should I quote it and embarass you or do you want to simply go back, read it and say "sorry, I must've been confused or reading something else".
I can see that the teachings of intolerance have worked in your case. Your whole discussion style shows an inability to deal with differing opinions. I am just glad that you are confined to the message board and have no other means to reach me non-believer.
