During the French and Indian War, then Colonel George Washington fought a battle in which his jacket got 4 bullet holes, and he went unscathed. He gave credit to God for saving his life. John Adams was a Puritan who converted to Unitarianism with much of New England under the leadership of Jonathan Mayhew (more on him later). He was a very religious man. Thomas Jefferson was not particularly religious and denied the divinity of Christ (a "radical" Unitarian belief), but certainly believed in an active God, and called himself a Christian. Perhaps the silliest of all though is calling James Madison a Deist. And it's been done a lot. Madison studied Anglican theology for his post-doctoral work at Princeton, and probably would have been a minister had the Revolution not started. He was an advocate of separation of Church and State, but he was also deeply religious. ------------------------------------------ My hypothesis on Jonathan Mayhew and Unitarianism: Perhaps the most overlooked part of the Revolution is the role that the Unitarianism played. And more importantly, the fact that Unitarianism as a backlash against The Great Awakening. With all due respect to my ancestors, Mel Gibson, and the rest of the South Carolinians, Virginia and New England were the really important parts of the Revolution. The Revolution would never have succeeded without New England, which prior to the 1760s was primarily Puritan. The Puritans, especially Great Awakening Puritans, were Biblical literalists, who could have never reconciled the Revolution with Romans 13, which says that leaders are ordained by God. The common view among Puritans was that rebelling against the crown was sinful. When Unitarianism began to take hold, which claimed a pre-Nicene orgin, and used Scripture as a general guide instead of an instruction book, this began to open up. Unitarians took over some Puritan Churches, like the famous West Church in Boston where John Adams worshipped, and influenced the rest. The Unitarians not only rejected the idea that rebellion and disobedience to the crown was sinful, Jonathan Mayhew taught that since the King interfered with the free will of Man, that subjecting oneself to him was sinful, and that rebellion was a Christian duty. It is Mayhew that is credited with coining the phrase "Taxation without Representation", and Unitarians and Unitarian-influenced Puritans that revolted.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm Any particular reason you assume it is a BS claim? Other than the notion that it would be harder to 'like' them for the 'really nice' people they all are? Do I think all muslims are ready and willing to lie to 'unbelievers' (ie US)? No, but how can we truly give our trust, given the fact that the religion specifically directs that enemies be deceived and defeated by any manner possible? Mohammed himself did this to the Meccans. The only truth now is actions, not words. It is a mistake to rely solely upon the words spoken by islamic leaders, outfits liek CAIR, but instead their actions must match.
My apologies, but the site that you have quoted from isn't exactly a paragon of objectivity... From the site's "About us" page: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm "That's what makes it extremely odd that Islam should be called a Religion of Peace. Not only does it inspire an enormous amount of violence, but an astonishing level of indifference and self-centeredness as well." "We watched in the months following 9/11, as Muslim-American groups began to act as hindrances in the war on terror and the efforts of Americans to defend themselves..." "And finally, we came to realize that this extraordinary arrogance and self-absorption on the part of the Muslim community, along with an inability to empathize with others or engage in the sort of self-critique that leads to moral progress is in no way incidental to the religion. There is something deeply, deeply wrong with Islam." Out of curiousity, have you read the Qur'an? The descriptions/interpretations of the surahs quoted on the page you had linked to are inaccurate and misrepresented to support the site's overall message/purpose. Also, could you tell me where you got the information about muhammad (pbuh) lying to the meccans?
That was a site that was picked entirely at random. Try what I did: go to Google, and search on islam + "lie to unbelievers" I just grabbed one of the, oh, 1600+ results. I mean, it's not like this is in doubt, it's in there. And yes, you MIGHT find a few pages out there which have a mission of trying to make people aware that islam is not all warm and fuzzy, as it laughably tries to portray itself. And what, to you, would be an 'objective' site, regarding this subject? An islamic site, put there by islamic scholars? Or maybe the only objective site would be the one which steadfastly declares that that whole business of being permitted to lie to unbelievers isn't really true, that's not what it really means? Sometimes things just are what they are. So, what was inaccurate in the descriptions, as you say? Is it your claim that islam does not in fact permit lying to unbelievers? Or are you simply objecting to that particular website as a source?
I prefer a Christian viewpoint on this please. I am just trying to understand. Can someone please explain to me what the holy trinity is and how it all works please? I dont understand the holy ghost, father, and jesus thing. Also can someone please explain to me if Jesus is God then why would he sacrifice himself on the cross and then come back? I mean God cant feel any pain right? How can god have a mother if he is god? Doesnt that mean mary is also a god? Why is Jesus always portrayed as being white? I prefer a jewish viewpoint on this please. Also why is it that Judaism is a special club? Why cant anybody join it? If they can then why isnt there a big conversion? If only jews go to heaven then where do other people go? Why cant we all live in peace? I prefer everyones viewpoint on this. What conflicts do Christians and Jews and Muslims and Gentiles have with each other which causes them to not get along?
I really would like for you to apologize. You are wrong and are lying about my religion and publicly lying about my religion to support your own personal, egotistical, selfish purposes. In all seriousness, I'm going to explain why you are so incredibly wrong. If you still don't feel that you were wrong, then fine. But read what I'm going to explain, and if you see that you were wrong to not look into the link(s) enough to know that it was false, please admit that. Also, please don't deny that you made the claim and only SEARCHED for a source when prompted. You accepted this claim as hearsay and decided to refuse trust in 1 billion humans as a result of it. Your link claims the following from the Qura'an: 1) Sura (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie. First of all, that number is a verse not a Sura. Second of all, here is what it actually says: [16:106] Those who disbelieve in GOD, after having acquired faith, and become fully content with disbelief, have incurred wrath from GOD. The only ones to be excused are those who are forced to profess disbelief, while their hearts are full of faith.* Here is the footnote: *16:106 God's wisdom decrees that if someone holds a gun to your head and orders you to declare that you disbelieve in God, you may grant him his wish. What the heart harbors is what counts. Did you bother to click on the link to the "Sura"? No you didn't. 2) Sura (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves." Here's what it actually says: [3:28] The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from GOD. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. To GOD is the ultimate destiny. This means: if you are, for example, British... and there's a British person who needs your help to do something that is ok by Islam, don't take the other side (opposing side). To avoid persecution (i.e. if a gun is being held to your head), you can not follow this rule. However, that doesn't mean what you did ISN'T wrong, it just means that you are not exiled from God. 3) Sura (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers. Here is what it really says: [40:26] Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses, and let him implore his Lord. I worry lest he corrupts your religion, or spreads evil throughout the land." [40:27] Moses said, "I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord, from every arrogant one who does not believe in the Day of Reckoning." God Guides Not the Liars [40:28] A believing man among Pharaoh's people, who was concealing his belief, said, "How can you kill a man just for saying, `My Lord is GOD,' and he has shown you clear proofs from your Lord? If he is a liar, that is his problem, and if he is truthful, you benefit from his promises. Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar. The man is speaking to the Pharoah, who wants to kill him. Nevermind that, as I understand it, it's Western culture that prefers hiding religious beliefs. 4) Sura (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" Absolutely right. 5) Sura (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths" The biggest lie of them all. Here's what it really says: [66:2] GOD has decreed for you the laws dealing with your oaths. GOD is your Lord, and He is the Omniscient, Most Wise. PLEASE check yoru sources before making these claims or believing them. Don't get brainwashed by these people. Nero, I honestly dont know how you'll react. But I hope you realize how unbelievably unethical and immoral your post was. 1 billion Muslims in the world, and you painted them with those thoughts in your head. For what? Laziness, bias, I don't know. But please try to make a better effort next time.
One last thing, Notice that all those verses are taken from different sections of the book. No two lines follow each other. Basically, it's the equivalent of me selecting any 5 sentences from different parts of the Bible which, when put together, support my theory. That practice alone discredits the entire website IMO, but at the very least, makes it clear that the author of that page is corrupt.
Do your research before you come in here stating all this stuff as fact. I pity anybody who reads this and believes your post to be factual and not just a bunch of BS you put together.
Ehsan: Thanks for taking the time to provide such interesting detail. I figured most of the animosity you responded to was based off misinformation, but it's nice to see those suspicions concretely proven.
Are you that guy that keeps sending out those emails I get about Obama all the time? I wondered where all that bull**** was coming from.
A friend told me that the most devoted Muslims are actually the Talibans and Al Qaidas, who follow the Islam texts exactly. All that women beating and head cuttings of people who don't obey them are actually a part of Islam. Damn! Why is the Muslim community quiet about all the BS treatments of women and the actions of those terrorists? Put up huge banners that write them off as non Muslims. Seperate from them. Or is my friend correct, the terrorists are actually hardcore Muslims? If Obama was a Muslim, I would not vote for him. Women beating is just plain WRONG. Also, this country was founded by Christians. When will there ever be a Christian President in a Muslim country?
Oh, and all black people are lazy and all Latinos crossed the border illegally. While we're at it, all Asians have small penises and old people can't drive. Since we're on the subject, all kids are idiots, all modern music is bad, all liberals hate America and all conservatives are Nazis. At least that's what I heard...from a friend. Any other generalizations you'd like to throw out there for good measure?
All moderators are veggie-eatin' liberal weiners. EDIT: Holy what the hell? When did yao only fan become an obscenity? Changed it to better suit this thread anyhow
Yeah yeah - I remember you mentioning that you had gotten off the veggie train some time ago. Meh - my joke was already hosed when Y.O.F. was edited out. *hangs head in shame*
I never said I was correct. I said if what my friend said was true, then I wouldn't vote for Obama if he was a Muslim. But I've never seen on the news where Muslims protest the actions of the terrorists and writing them off as non-Muslims. The terrorists are painting the wrong picture for Muslims if the religion is much more peaceful. So this makes me wonder if those terrorists are actually following the original teachings of Islam. From wikipedia: "While in power, the Taliban implemented the "strictest interpretation of Sharia law ever seen in the Muslim world,"[6] and became notorious internationally for their treatment of women.[7]"
