pgabriel - You continue to argue that Steve's actions are justified because he was just playing the hand he was dealt the best he knew how - be it Rudy's poor personnel decisions or whatever. But we know from Van Gundy at least, as vocal he is with the media, that Steve continually ignored the coaches instructions, opting instead to go his own way, and create his own offense. This is well documented, and beyond dispute. A year ago, the assumption was that Rudy wasn't the coach for this team because he couldn't reign in the youngsters and teach them some discipline. In the championship era, most of the players were veterans. However, if the problem was the lack of discipline on the team, Van Gundy should have been able to improve matters. He arguably demands more discipline than any other coach in the league! So obviously, the burden of the discipline problem rests not with the coach, but the players. You can't dispute that fact, and if you do, I'm through with this discussion, because you're letting your stubborness blind you. Now, your point is that Rudy was fired because of poor personnel decisions. Let's just go with the (faulty) assumption that Rudy is to blame for all of the player movement during his tenure. Fine, I can accept that, I'm sure he had a big part of it. Now think about this - Rudy's player acquisitions were based on a system he had in mind, a certain set of plays, a rotation, all that. He expected a certain offensive scheme to result. How close do you think Steve honestly adhered to that scheme? If pictures of Rudy throwing up his hands in disbelief (one of his signature moves) is any indication, things weren't going according to plan. There should be a photo gallery of all those shots. So you blame Rudy for the system, or Steve's refusal to buy into it? Maybe blame Rudy for being willing to put up with it for so long.
Name one time that Van Gundy said Steve didn't do something he was supposed to on the court. One. Not the Superbowl incident, somthing on the court, that Van Gundy actually said Steve was not doing that he was supposed to since this is so well-documented. The complaint Steve didn't follow instructions is a myth that has grown on this BBS for the past two seasons but I have never seen either Rudy or Van Gundy say Steve didn't follow instructions.
Well here's the quintessential statement, let me see what others I can find... http://www.jsonline.com/sports/buck/oct03/178360.asp "Steve offensively, right now, is trying to hit the home run every time down," Van Gundy said. "Steve is sometimes so great he can hit a home run. To shake somebody and take on another guy and take tough shots . . . the game's got to be easier. We're not playing team offense the right way. Blown play after play, assignment after assignment." Said Francis: "I've been playing the same way for five years. The part of me going one-on-one when the shot clock is going down, that's what I've got to do. I'm not going to throw the ball to a 7-foot guy on the three-point line if I can do something at the end of the shot clock."
Here's another: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ramsay_drjack&id=1732688 Van Gundy has worked hard to make Francis more accountable for his playmaking role with the team, but Francis has been reluctant to change his game style. "He (Van Gundy) is going to coach the way he wants to coach, and I'm going to play the way I want to play. There's always going to be conflict," Francis told the Houston Chronicle. Said Van Gundy: "I would agree with that -- not that he'll play the way he wants to play ... but I agree with everything else." In other words, the coach expects the conflict to continue because he's not going to sit back and watch Francis decide how the team's game will be played.
DarkHorse, you found one article from preseason, and one from the superbowl incident. Is that the best you have? By the way, do you not concede that you could make this same hypothetical argument that you are trying to make in this thread w/respect to Yao's fatigue, Larry Smith's suckiness, the Thomas trade, etc etc etc?
Well the first quote was from the pre-season so I don't put too much stock into that. Of course they bumped heads at the beginning because Francis had been used to playing for a different style of coaching which that article also pointed out and the second was right after the superbowl incident so take that for what its worth. And lastly, Francis did exactly what Rudy wanted him to do, and that's the problem Francis had with Van Gundy. For three years, Rudy isolated Francis. That was the Rockets system, so to assert that Francis was undiciplined because he initiated the offense through isolation is ridiculous, since that was the Rockets system. So if isolation got Rudy fired, he only has himself to look in the mirror for that. Edit: Sorry Sam, but I was typing when you posted.
How do you know he did what he was told? Were you in the huddle? At practice? So Rudy actually said: "Okay, let's dribble the ball around for 20 seconds, then look for a shot"?
Link And lastly, this is what Francis and Van Gundy said the day immediately after your first quote. Again, the whole "Francis didn't listen argument" is way over-played, over-hyped, and has no basis.
Exactly. And this brings us back to the original point. Rudy wasn't one to go to the media. He was an in-house man. Rudy could have had a great offense in mind, but if Steve wouldn't buy into it, what could he do? Rudy was considerably more soft than Van Gundy, so he gave in to the players and played the best percentage he could muster - the iso. But there's no way you can convince me that Rudy's plan was to have Francis and Cuttino wait 21 seconds to shoot every trip down the floor. We'll probably never know what really went on behind closed doors unless someone comes out with an expose' book years from now. But it's considerably more likely that Francis just chose to go his own way, and not that Rudy was a bad coach.
We all see what we want to see. I'm obviously a Francis defender, you're obviously a big Rudy fan. But no one had a problem with Steve's offense before Yao got here so to assert that Steve all of sudden became uncoachable is just reaching. Rudy failed at blending these two, if they couldn't be blended, that's just the way it is and Rudy may have gotten an unfair deal. But to assert that Francis did not do what he was told has no basis for now because no one has said this. So your premise is flawed until otherwise proven right.
Right...must have been a lie. Any evidence that goes against me must be a lie. I guess when Van Gundy was talking about Yao's lack of stamina in that same article it was also a lie. Lies, lies, lies, all of it. I take it by this you have nothing else, right? And you have nothing to counter the fact that the argument that you are trying to put forth in this thread can be made for any number of factors, not including Steve Francis, correct? If these are incorrect, then let me know.
if not for steve francis, gasoline prices would be low, houston would have mild summers, the astros wouldn't be chokers, and there'd be peace in iraq. i think that much is obvious.
Of course you're going to say as many good things about your own players to the public as you can. Even if the situation is beyond repair, you keep that private because it does nothing but drive the value of your player down, and sometimes your stuck with the situation. Look at LA right now. Shaq is demanding a trade, but a trade might not be feasable with his contract. Think the future is bright for the Lakers? Van Gundy isn't going to put the franchise in jeopardy out of spite. As to other contributing factors that may have played into Rudy's firing... sure, it's possible that Yao's fatigue or Rudy's untimely cancer or the Thomas trade could have been a factor. The cancer was a completely uncontrolable factor. So was Yao's fatigue, unless you're suggesting that Yao defect from his native country just to get better rest. The Thomas trade brought in James Posey, who PROSPERED under an efficient point guard in Memphis. So you're saying that if I'm wrong, Rudy was fired because of uncontrolable circumstances. Fine, that still doesn't make him a bad coach, and maybe he shouldn't have been the scapegoat.
And one more quick thing. I'm really not trying to attack Steve as much as I'm trying to alleviate the blame placed on Rudy's shoulders. I think this team was going nowhere with or without him.
I think this discussion is basically over, but I just wanted to know if anyone else heard the guest they had on PTI just now say that Rudy T decision was a mutual agreement with the team, primarily because the players had tuned him out, and he wasn't getting through to them. (they were talking about Rudy going to L.A., and Tony K asked if Rudy was run out of town or whether he stepped down) I missed the beginning of the conversation, but Tony called him Richie when he hung up?
Some things Rudy said the last 2-3 years he coached Steve still ring in my ear.... "...a coach needs cooperation with this best players..." he said a couple occasions...once during Hakeem's retirement and a few other times that might have been hinting to something else...as we all know Rudy isn't as blunt as JVG Rudy also gushed how YaoMing enjoyed it when his teammates scored...it's was as if he was scoring...Rudy mentioned it's great when your best players play like that...this may have been another not so subtle hint. Another comment by Steve made a couple years ago took me aback...at the end of the year his teammates were complaining that he wasn't passing the ball. As we all know Rudy leaves it to the players to sort things out...Steve lashed out his teammates should stop being jealous...if he scores 30, they should be happy for him... I think last year Steve grew out of this and realized the importance of passing/keeping teammates happy. What I wasn't convinced he realized was the power of the turnover. Turnovers are why we lost to the Lakers... there were things Steve could have done less or more to improve his turnover numbers and he didn't do it... Anyway I'm of the belief Steve will flourish...Most players not named Magic or Larry don't "get it" until they are around 28...this includes Kobe, MJ(27-28), Olajuwon(31), other stars and role players...
I don't think Steve's ballhandling showed any improvement, but his decision making was better and he played better defense. As a result of putting more energy into his D, his shooting seemed to suffer. It ain't much, but I think that is improvement... especially in philosophy. How you play the game still counts... at least a little. Besides, Steve had years with Rudy and only one with JVG, so that isn't the best gauge. I would say that Steve's game still reflected more of Rudy's coaching than JVG's.
