If its Spurs vs Pistons, I'm not going to watch the Finals

I didn't say he could "easily" be replaced, but SF and at least another 8 PGs throughout the league would make the Spurs equal or better than they are with Parker. Parker is right at the bottom of the top quarter starting PGs, or top of the 2nd quarter, let's not pretend he is a top 5 PG.

Manu is much more important to the Spurs, but even with him there are at least 10 swingmen who are better than him and more capable to lead a team by themselves. And based on how Kobe and Tmac's teams did when they were the only primary focus ontheir squads--two players younger and noone in their right mind would suggest are inferior to Manu--I don't a think Manu could lead a successful team very long as the centerpiece.

The fact the rest of the Spurs, including Manu and Parker could buck up a little a sustain performance for a few weeks is not the same as sustaining the team for a season. Without Duncan the Spurs are not a playoff team, they certainly would not have been better than the Wolves or Grizzlies.

Yes solid, we seem to completely disagree on who makes the Spurs go.

 

Actually, I think we agree on what makes the Spurs go, Tim Duncan. What we don't agree on is the importance of Parker. I think he has worked himself into the position of being one of the league's elite POINT GUARDS. Futhermore, I think he has a unique relationship with T.D. and they play especially well together. They both add much to each other's game.

My views of Francis are well documented; I view him as more of a problem than a solution for any team. I wrote my last extensive analysis of his game some months ago. Since then, I have only mentioned him in passing, when absolutely necessary to make a point. Otherwise, I have nothing more to say about him.

 

When absolutely necessary? Right, in a thread about a potential boring Finals that have nothing to do with Steve Francis you choose to bring out the ridiculous claim that Tony "I have cost the Spurs championships because I get punked out of the playoffs when my team most needs me the most" Parker is better than Francis.

Parker is a very good point guard, with a nice skill set and physical talents that rival Francis' (speed and quickness versus strength and hops), but he is not on his level. His problem is that he's soft and loses his heart, much worst than Francis losing his head at times, because you can still win despite a few mistakes, but never without heart.

Unless he's grown a pair since last season he will get punked out of an important series, AGAIN! It's going to be Beno Ulrich time for sure if the Pistons somehow find a way to beat Miami two games in a row, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Damon "Donkey" Jones finds a way to take him out of the series as well. At least he comes home to Eva.

 

Let us see, where does Parker belong?

1st tier elite PGs, not in order
PGs
A. Iverson
G. Arenas
S. Marbury
Steve Francis
C. Billups
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Mike Bibby

2nd tier PGs
Jason Terry
Luke Ridnour
Dre Miller
K Hinrich
Gary Payton
D Stoudamire
J Williams
R Alston

Either Parker is absolutely the last of 1st tier PGs, maybe #9 overall, or one of the best 2nd tier (#9-#10). Either way, "elite" is pretty stretching it.

Further lots of the criticisms for Francis as a PG, not that many assists per minute, poor A/TO ratio, not a great playmaker, Parker fairs worse than 5 of the 8 elites. Overall he isn't a very disciplined player--certainly not compared to Nash, Kidd, Bibby, Marbury or Billups--you elite traditional PGs. Only Arenas, Iverson and Francis have worse A/TOs, but it is not so large a difference it would cancel out their major scoring plus many other advantages over Parker.

Finally if you asked me would the Spurs lose much with a solid 2nd tier PG instead of Parker next year--say Terry or Hinrich or Ridnour (Terry is a much better shooter and more efficient player, the latter two learning but getting there soon)--no, IMO, they would not lose much. So yeah he is a good player for the Spurs and third best, but no I don't think he would be that hard to replace either. The only saving grace with his contract is he is young and might become more disciplined and efficient with time (we thought the same with Francis right), but he is not close to there yet.

 

He has to be somewhere in the top 10, even though he's fallen below Speedy Claxton on his own team and below an old Glove at times during his career.

EDIT2: Game is boring, they just gotta keep it over 20, so I'll rank PGs.

1. Steve Nash
MVP
2. Allen Iverson
MO(Outstanding)P
3. Baron Davis
Watch out for the Warriors next season.
4. Jason Kidd
He'll help Carter go back into the best swingman in the game conversations next season.
5. Chauncey Billups
Finals MVP.
6. Mike Bibby
Underrated.
7. Kirk Hinrich
Best player on the 4th place Bulls.
8. Steve Francis
Has to step it up next season.
9. Gilbert Arenas
Outstanding scorer.
10. Stephon Marbury
The most talented PG of the bunch, he needs someone to add the word "sacrifice" to his vocabulary.
11. Luke Ridnour
Ran one of the most efficeint offenses in the league last season.
12. Tony Parker
Solid's guy turns into a vagina at times.
13. Andre Miller
Solid all around.
14. Shaun Livingston
If he's gaining weight and muscle right now he should move up into the top 10.
15. Jamal Tinsley
He needs to stay healthy.

I think that's it.

What happens in 5 minutes?

I think the Pistons have a chance if Wade is out, if not he's going to kill them just like he has the rest of the series. Only difference is that he's going to be grabbing his side and grimacing after every step-back-fade-a-way jumper he hits over Prince and every crazy-reverse layup he makes over the Wallaces. It's already making me sick.

With Shaq playing his best mental and unselfish game of his career (his injury is proving to be a blessing in disguise IMO) the Heat are extermely tough to beat. He's rebounding like Juwon Howard but the job he's doing on Ben Wallace has been great, basically making him a non-factor because he's keeping him off the boards, and in foul trouble, something he couldn't do when he was healthy last season. He's also giving a lot of effort on the defensive end and being a true leader for the first time in a long time. I still hope he falls on his ass but I also admire his effort and true unselfish play even if the things that are probably pushing him aren't so admirable (getting back at the Lakers and Kobe, and his contract extension).

Freaking Larry Brown and his selfish power seeking self, did he already forget that winning a championship requires a 100% dedication from everyone? Even the ball boys and the dudes who fetch the Gatorade have to give it their all, everything counts, everything has to be perfect. Maybe Shaq is giving him a cut of his extension...

EDIT: Wow, he's not playing. Game 7 it is.

 

And it will be the Spurs and the Pistons in the Finals. Detroit just blew out the Heat. The Heat are toast, without Wade their season is over. No way Wade comes back in game seven and is effective. If he comes back and scores 30+ and leads the Heat to the finals, I will be ready to anoint him the next MJ. I think his injury is too dibilitating and without him, forget about it.

 

Why no love for our own Bob Sura??!!

Manny Ramirez faints

 

BS I think it will come down to...

1. Wade - His availabilty and ability. They don't need his playoff average, but 20 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 steals, and 4 turnovers should be enough since Shaq will step up for sure.

2. Defense and Rebounding - Only way you beat Detroit is at their own game, that means Shaq has to dominate there, not by dunking on Ben Wallace.

3. The Wallaces - Rasheed has to wake up! He's my boy, but right now he's like Dave Chappelle, running from expectations! Ben Wallace needs to be Ben Wallace and not let Shaq dunking on him affect his game, he didn't last season. They need at least 20+ combined points and rebounds, and they need to control their emotions.

4. Shaq - They need for him to stay out of foul trouble and get 15+ rebounds, 5+ blocks, and 5+ assists, the points don't matter as much, he looks like he's getting healthier so it's possible for him to truly dominate.

5. Detroit back court - Need to get as close game 6 level as they can, Final's MVP Billups has to make his return.

6. Jones boys - Hit open shots, play defense, beat their pressure, run, run, run, move the ball to Shaq and Wade.

7. Prince - Right now he's the artist formerly known as Teyshaun "Shutdown" Prince, they need a big game from him, need him to stick Eddie Jones.

8. Bench - The bench who preforms the best will probably win.

Bottom line: Shaq will step up, it's on Wade to carry him into the Finals.

 

I forgot about him because he did not qualify for stats last season. That makes Parker at best #10 among point guards. A good one, but hardly elite. With guys like Paul, Williams and Felton entering and with guys like Hinrich and Ridnour IMO probably surpassing him as complete PGs with experience I am not sure if he will ever be better than about 10th best--top of 2nd quartile or bottom of 1st quartile at best.

 

As long as Wade is 80%, it is 50/50 on Detriot and Miami. Miami did the right thing not playing Wade if he was iffy and shutting down the team. Might as well put all the effort at home in a game 7 than two games on the road splitting what you can get from Wade and Shaq.

One thing if for sure, either team will be more prepared to play the style of SA, than SA will be for either of them after playing Phx. I'd say the lay off (Spurs) versus being through tougher, more physical, comp (Mia/Det) will be a pretty even trade off so long as the key Mia/Det players are 90%.

 

From 1-4, no one would argue those guy belong there, 5-7 is debateable, but a solid case can be made for both... However from there, its a very tenious list.

The First problem with ur list is that you have steve francis rated above Arenas AND Marbury. Now im a big fan of franchise, but in one category does he precede marbury and arenas this past season? marbury has the edge in terms of points/asssts/to while arenas is not only by far the bigger scorer but his team made the playoffs unlike the other 2. The only thing franchise has over the other two is rebounding... and thats one of the least important thing you look for in a pg.

The second and by far the biggest problem of your top 15 pg list is placing luke ridnour number 11 and ABOVE paker! First of all Luke ridnour avgd 10 and 4 on 40%fg shooting in 2005. If the number 11 point gaurd in the league avg that I guess Bob Sura is in the top fifteen also. since he avg 10 and 5 on 42% fg. Which makes your list looks even more ridiculous... i mean a case can be made that sura was a better player/pg for the rockets than ridnour was for the sonics. If ridnour cant beat sura comparatively how does he pass parker on this list??? I mean do you realize ridnour couldnt even defend parker during their playoff series?? Parker outplayed him during the season with avgs of 16 and 6 on 48% and in the playoffs with (against sonics) 17/4 and 45%. Ridnours stats were 10/4 40% and playoffs 10/4 on 44%. Ridnour is argueable not even the best pg on his team, yet u want to put him as 11th in the league.

The third and last problem with ur list... shaun livingston... the guy may have potential, he may have talent... but he hasnt done anything yet. You dont become a top player until you fulfil or reach ur potential, not only because you have it... if that werent the case guys like, harold miner, kandi, kwame, darko, etc etc would all be top players in the league.

Now if your list is merely a list of players you like or players you think have the best moves or whatever... than disregard my post. But if its one based on a players play during this past year or what they will likely do next year, you should serious reconsider applying some logic.

 

Arenas over Francis is fine, I like Francis better but it's not by much.

I'll never put Marbury over Francis though because Marbury is all about himself, he needs to win or lose on his terms and he still can't see that that holds his teams back. Once that dude understands that sacrifice from a PG is extrememly important for his team's success he will become one of the top three PGs in the NBA.

Rebounding is not the least important thing in a PG, it's something that's unusual like getting assists from a SG but still a huge positive.

Ridnour does what's necessary for his team to compete, nothing more nothing less, the Sonics played the Spurs the toughest despite Rashard sitting a few games. It's only one spot though, no big deal.

He was the best PG on his team for most of the season, had he not suffered two big injuries they might of been a .500 team for the first time in forever. In April he averaged 11 points and 7 assists, and he hit a game winner against the Bobcats. The best thing about him is that he holds back! He can score, as he showed hitting quarter ending shots against the Rockets and that game winner againt the Bobcats, but he cares more about getting everyone else involved. I think his high school scoring numbers were pretty low, even his assists numbers were pretty low, but that didn't stop people from seeing him as the best PG prospect since Jason Kidd. All he needs is to do is stay healthy.

Anyway, that was just for fun, we'll see what happens next season.

 

Hey Tinman, at least you got some free time now.

DD

 

#@%$!, what a disappointment.

On one side, you have the Spurs who are probably the most annoying team ever with that Argentine Flopper and his Pinocchio nose as well as Eva Longorria's boyfriend, and Mr. "I can't do anything except play like an ******* on defense" Bowen. These 3 assclowns automatically ruin the rest of the team for me. Why did Horry have to go there and why can't Duncan play somewhere else?

Then you got the Pistons who have no redeeming qualities in my mind. Their fans are thugs, their style of play is incredibly boring, and if they win the finals, they might be the worst back-to-back champions ever. I am sure there are some who will take umbrage with that, but that is fine. I just don't see these Pistons beating the Showtime Lakers or Bird's Celtics or of course our Rockets. Hell, they couldn't even stay within single digits of the original Bad Boys!

So, I think I would rather watch 24 hours, continuously, of the Lifetime Network and Oxygen channel before I watch this garbage.



"Worst finals ever!!!

 

I think this is gonna be a great series. Both teams are well coached, have a lot of heart and play almost flawless defense. They also play well under pressure. I say it goes 7 games.

 

This series will be competitive but will more than likely be one of the lowest scoring Finals of the past 10 years, right up there with the spurs/knicks and spurs/nets (notice a trend here?). Couple a Finals with two non-glamorous cities and an impending lockout and I am just disappointed as to how quickly the league lost the momentum it had in April. Also, anytime that the WORST FANS IN PROFESSIONAL SPORTS get to enjoy a Finals it does not seem right to me. Detroit fans may not all be bad, but they certainly have a disproportionate number of drunk and lawless bad apples.

 

I'd much rather watch 7 games of great defence then high scoring anyday. Thats the difference between the NBA and rucker park. 5 guys working together to play flawless defence is much harder then one guy doing crossover dribbles and one hand dunks.