bob - just because he gave a first name doesn't indicate to me that it necessarily means it happened. all we have are SOME of Jesus' parables. i'm guessing there are lots more we don't have recorded. anyway..that's probably off topic.
Well when the fall of man occurred, there was a curse put on the earth. 2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
I've looked under chairs I've looked under tables I've tried to find the key To fifty million fables They call me The Seeker I've been searching low and high I won't get to get what I'm after Till the day I die I asked Bobby Dylan I asked The Beatles I asked Timothy Leary But he couldn't help me either They call me The Seeker I've been searching low and high I won't get to get what I'm after Till the day I die People tend to hate me 'Cause I never smile As I ransack their homes They want to shake my hand Focusing on nowhere Investigating miles I'm a seeker I'm a really desperate man I won't get to get what I'm after Till the day I die I learned how to raise my voice in anger Yeah, but look at my face, ain't this a smile? I'm happy when life's good And when it's bad I cry I've got values but I don't know how or why I'm looking for me You're looking for you We're looking in at each other And we don't know what to do They call me The Seeker I've been searching low and high I won't get to get what I'm after Till the day I die
We use scripture to interpret scripture. John 21 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. But of the things laid down for us in the New Testament we can interpret that it did occur.
He must not have found the bible. Matthew 7:7-8 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
The curse you're talking about extends from the curse related to Adam's disobedience...but that "curse" in Genesis seems to extend only to the land in terms of man having to work for sustinence. Many believe this story points towards the change from mankind as hunter/gatherer to agriculture. I've seen this used to extend to the idea that man's sin caused earthquakes and hurricanes and the like...but I find it to be a huge leap in logic that's unsupported. I also note that I've never seen this concept stemming up out of Judaism, either. I should also point out...I read the creation story in Genesis primarily as metaphor. It talks about a Creator who created a good creation....and how we seek our own way apart from God....and sets the stage for a God who seeks to bring us back to Him, without removing our own free will and dignity to make our own choices. I believe it to be a powerful story because it's true...not necessarily because it happened exactly as it was described.
I agree. I'm just not sure it's as clear that the story he tells is meant by him to be anything more than a powerful story about how harmful wealth without compassion can be.....a message he repeats over and over again.
On the original question, I throw in with the not-enough-information group. You seem to be assuming a Christian god. If I knew the god of the Bible was real, then yeah I'd probably fall in line. If not the Biblical god or that of the Koran or whatever, knowing he existed wouldn't give me much indication of what I should do.
That is fair enough. Personally I believe Jesus was a great man, like Ghandi, but no more the son of god than you or I. Same for Muhammed, he was just a man as well. DD
Suffering is an attribute of sin, as defined by God Himself in Genesis 3:14-24. Interestingly, Lucifer who God found iniquity in and later coerced humans to defy God appears immune to suffering, at least until his judgement.
But you do believe in God, right? So you answer this question that God exists, right?? Don't mean to pin you down...just curious because we've had these discussions before.
Suffering is absolutely an attribute of sin. I believe it can stem from other things as well....unless you're suggesting that: 1. Christ didn't suffer; or 2. Christ sinned.
God's word is truth. In fact, Jesus in The Word in the flesh. The bible is contains the perfect law of liberty. Jesus said I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life. The trilemma is, He is either lair, lunatic, or Lord of All. I chose to believe in the whole bible. The good, the bad, the ugly. This includes the Bibles account of creation. I believe when we can begin to question the meaning of The Word as it is written we can stray away from the narrow path. Not saying you are, but I know many fellow brother's in Christ that are very liberal in their leaning. This has led me and them to sin.
Absoultely not! Christ *had* to suffer though innocent. You and I agree on that. That being said, where else could suffering come from? God is perfectly just, therefore the curse of sin would only be effective on those that sin right? Christ being the exception of course.
That falls in line with the trilemma: liar, lunatic, Lord Jesus said himself, "I and the Father are one." John 10:30 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. He claimed to be the Son of God, and is given all authority on earth and in heaven. He can't be just a good teacher. You must either reject Him or accept Him as Lord, either way: Philippians 2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. You can do it now and be shown mercy and grace or do it when you die and incur eternal judgement.
Wait...I'm confused...did you post the above because I suggested Jesus spoke in parables, and might have been doing so with regard to the Lazarus story?? Or because of the Genesis story? Because I don't think Jesus is a liar or a lunatic if the Genesis account is metaphor. I don't believe it was written to be interpreted literally; thus it's not a lie if it didn't happen literally. It's Hebrew poetry. It's wonderful, beautiful and it communicates Truth, I believe. In that way, I do not see myself as questioning it's meaning...in fact, I believe the meaning behind it is far more important than the literal account. Remember that the Bible as you know it was not organized and compiled until about 300 years after Christ's resurrection. It is a collection of stories, poetry, letters, historical accounts, etc that are remarkably congruent given the many authors over a very long period of time. When I see people quote Scripture to talk about the Bible it makes me vomit...because the authors of these books had no concept of a compiled Bible as being "the word of God." And given the arguments the early church had even amongst those like Peter and Paul, I have no idea what either of them would have sought to have included or excluded. The Bible itself isn't God. And the Bible isn't the only way God reveals himself to human beings. I knew God long before I could read or understand a Bible. As for liberal, conservative....blah. I've had enough of that distinction. I've been an elder in one church that labelled me too conservative....I have friends in others that would label me too liberal. From my viewpoint, I see dogmatism and religion casting those labels...not Jesus. I find truth in Jesus. I believe in Him. He is my salvation. I'm struggling mightily to try to follow him.
"Give up your life for him." Now, how is that any different from the extreme Muslims who sacrifice their life for Allah? The folks that answered "Yes" truly scare me.
Suffering seems to be the mark of those who followed Jesus most closely. From John the Baptist...to the disciples who became apostles....to the early church. Paul indicates that suffering sharpens our faith, even. Prosperity Gospel nonsense suggests that if you're suffering you must be far from God....I see the exact opposite of that in the New Testament.
It's not meant in the sense of dying for Him literally....it's meant in the sense that your life is suppposed to be lived for Him...and in that way, you die to yourself. It's metaphorical death. And one who is following Christ would have a very difficult time justifying bringing suffering on anyone else.
