If Cp wasn’t so greedy

1) Chris Paul taking less would make the team willing to spend more. For example, the MLE we're currently sitting on. We would not be under the cap of course, but we would be willing to spend more. Ariza took 15. Who knows what we offered him? Maybe we offered him 7? Maybe if Paul took 5m less, we would have then - in this example - offered him 12?

2) So if he had opted out, he would have signed with is for $154m/4 years. Instead, he is basically making from us $184m in 5 years. That's $30m for what will likely be the worst season of his career. The only way Paul was going to make more money than this was if he found another team would commit beforehand to opt in and sign a 5-year extension - which is imo doubtful, because who the hell would he be more valuable to than us?

If we agree that there is not a single indication anywhere that the Clippers were going to max him out, he basically took the most money unless there was a team who was going to give him a 5 year max at 33 years old.

I'm still happy we got him. But I don't think we're discussing the same point. My point is, even considering all this, I believe him taking a pay cut would have freed Morey (via Tilman) to improve this squad using the MLE (or trades where we receive a few $ more than we send out).

Look at this roster. We got Capela at a bargain, and then spent only vet minimum. We are sitting on the whole MLE. You only need a portion of the MLE to outbid other buyout candidate hunters, but that strategy only works if you're actually a contender when they show up. What is the point carrying that MLE post deadline if we're lingering mid table? We are not a star away. We didn't lose any stars.

 

Lobbying doesn't mean forcing. No one forced Durant, Lebron or Duncan to take pay cuts. They were convinced by whoever that it would benefit their chance of winning. They did it. CP3 didn't.

He doesn't HAVE to take max. He wants to. Like most players, he wants it more than he wants to help the team win. I'm just saying, some players are a little less like that. CP3 is not one of those guys. CP3 wants to be the NBAPA President too. But in this NBA, trying to beat the Warriors (most of whom are underpaid) while paying Paul and Knight $50m is a problem. Paul and Morey are responsible for that. They made their choices.

 

They were all in different positions than CP? Like I none of their situations are comparable. We dont have to dissect them one by one, but we do have to understand that none of them were in the same position as CP except maybe Lebron and he hasnt taken anything less than the max and short term deals since becoming vice president.

With the stances hes made as the president, he kind of does. Also I wanna say, alot of these "paycuts" with the Warriors is dudes getting lucky. Like they are lucky they even had Curry on that deal and the only reason they did was because he was injured. You can bet Draymond(and Klay if Durant doesnt stay) will be trying to get paid.

 

What would that 5 mil for this year would have gotten us? I would like to know what players we could have gotten, and dont say Ariza cause he isnt playing well at all right now and we could likely be right where we are right now. Durant took that pay cut but he also signed a one year deal and not a max cause he want to keep his options open. Paul did not want that.

 

It's not really matter of your or my favorite additions, that's a pointless game to play. For Tilman to allow Morey to spend the full MLE (vs we're sitting on it at the beginning of December) is significant. One solid rotation player might mean we're not 0-5 without Paul. If you are arguing there's no one who was signed this offseason higher than the minimum and lower than the MLE who could help us, then you are not being sincere here.

They were all in different positions, if different means it wasn't identical. All the situations were similar. All those guys got their rings. What they do after their ring is a different story, they can murder their team's cap for all I care. CP3 simply could have resigned from NBAPA if it was that big a deal. NBA players don't need someone to tell them not to take a paycut, they have agents for that. CP3 showed less of a desire to win than Duncan, Lebron, Durant before their first rings.

Lebron won a ring based on 3 pay cuts (him, Wade and Bosh) then went on to become the VP of the NBAPA and declare people shouldn't take pay cuts. That's how much integrity there is in that organization. Right afterwards, the Warriors take pay cuts and it helps them keep their core together and add Durant and win more rings.

The idea that a team who loses 2 critical defensive players and acquires 1 minimum defensive wing to replace them, and now we sit on the MLE with holes at SF and to some extent PG and C... what do you think is going on here? Morey doesn't have the green light to use it, despite us having the tool to spend more than the minimum.

I'm done with this dude. There is no way you are going to convince me that CP3 should not have taken a pay cut with rationalizations about how little a difference it would make. This is a catastrophic season and lack of depth and financial flexibility is clear as day + the Warriors added Cousins for half a season at $5m. We need help, have the MLE, but are too far into Tilman's tax line to have spent it.

 

I think you’re generalizing a bit for brevity but I don’t necessarily disagree with what youre saying...I just think the point is we had a Ford on Ferrari payments that drove. We traded our working but expensive ford for nothing and now we severely lack spacing (I.e. someone over 6’6” with a consistent shot). I’ll give that there was at least the plan of inserting Melo to that role but with that having failed to launch? The Anderson trade was already glaring because it included a potential backup guard. It was pretty clearly a salary dump because it really didn’t help us. Now it’s a certified disaster zone.

This is what we get for not appreciating what Anderson DID do, instead of the teeth gnashing and bending of fingers he got for shooting “only” 38% and getting beat by NBA caliber guards in a defense that’s required him to step out and check them 25ft from the hoop.

 

A couple of points:

I doubt that we ever got around to making any firm offer to Ariza. The Rockets had their sites set on trying to get a Lebron or Paul George. That was the highest priority. Our need for Ariza would have went away if we'd have been able to acquire either of those two. Because of that I'm guessing they waited on making an offer Ariza in order to pursue a star. Ariza didn't wait for us and signed with Phoenix less than one hour after the start of free agency.

Unfortunately, that's the way you have to do it. Highest priority first and if that falls through then you adjust. If we'd been successful, then there's no way that they pay Ariza very much to be a backup because the payroll would have been through the roof.

As I said, if CP3 simply wanted to maximize his pay then he would have re-upped with LAC. That would have been $201M over 5 years. He wanted to play here so he took something in the middle by agreeing to a trade. I think that it's a given that the Clippers would have maxed out CP3 (as would several other teams).

If the Clippers weren't offering him the max then they would have known that he was gone. In that case he would have been traded by the trade deadline in order to get something in return. Worst case, they would have maxed him out and then traded him the following year as they did with Griffin.

 

The Rockets focus was (and still is) to get a third star. That was and is still the top priority. If they were to be successful then the payroll will take a big jump. The guys that they were pursuing ( PG13 and Lebron ) relegate Ariza to a bench player. If we would have been able to acquire one of those two then there's no way that they are going to pay Ariza $10M to be a backup.

Ariza didn't stick around to wait and see if we were successful acquiring a third star. He took the money and signed with Phoenix less than an hour after the start of free agency. I don't think that the Rockets ever really got around to seriously negotiating with Ariza. Their interest in him was dependent on whether or not we could acquire that elusive third star. Ariza didn't want to wait and possibly get left with many fewer options so he took Phoenix's offer very quickly.

 

I think we disagree on a core assumption: that the Clippers would max him out. I don't think that was happening. I think they thought they could convince him to go the Blake Griffin route and it didn't work out.

By signing with us, he made the most money he could make other than the Clippers max. No one was going to give him that age 37 year at $40-whatever million.

As for Ariza, it doesn't have to be Ariza. This team needs help and using the MLE is help. There were people available after Lebron and PG. We have it and are not using it, which is a clear indication that Tilman could use the savings to convince him to use the MLE.

 

We signed Ryno, because we needed a stretch 4 to surround Harden and after Howard turned the previous season into a garbage dump, no other high profile free agents were going to join us. That's what happens when a team ***** the bed and if you want a quality player, you have to overpay and gamble. In this case we lost in Ryan, though most would agree we overwhelmingly won with Ego's contract.

As for your statement about MLE, do you know how it works? Here is how a taxpayer's MLE works:

If an over-the-cap team currently projects to be a taxpayer, or expects to move into tax territory later in the 2018/19 season, it will have access to this smaller mid-level exception for taxpaying teams. If a team uses more than $5.337MM of its mid-level exception, it is forbidden from surpassing the tax apron at any time during the league year. So even if a team isn’t above the apron when it uses its MLE, it might make sense to play it safe by avoiding using the full MLE and imposing a hard cap.

The taxpayer MLE can be used to sign a player for up to three years, with 5% annual raises.
​

We are not jumping the gun on our MLE (outside of using it for Hart) because that is the smart thing to do. What you are complaining about him not doing is, ironically, supporting what you profess of having liked about Morey. Now, if your argument is there were people we could have signed that would significantly help us, then who did you propose we sign?

I disagree about the ludicrous contracts part especially. Ryno got his contract during the NBA's meteoric salary cap increase and projected later increases. If you are willing to put down your bias glasses and recall, all middling FA's were getting unprecedented large contracts and Ryno was hardly a middling FA at the time. Ryno was a rare stretch 4 (with elite range) during a time where not only were stretch 4's in high demand, but during a time where we were in dire need of one to put next to Harden. You can make a legitimate argument that at the time we overpayed for him, but to say it was a ludicrous contract is absolute insanity. The tanking of how much the cap increased in addition to Ryno's pint sized mental fortitude is what ultimately made his contract such a costly one, but there is a reason why people say hindsight is 20/20.

CP3 on the other hand is still a top 5 PG. He is having some health issues currently, but when he is healthy (and that is still typically pretty often until proven otherwise throughout the season), he is absolutely worth max money. You can argue that based on his health, we overpayed him. However, to say that it was a ludicrous contract is disingenuous at best. CP3 is the reason we got as far as we did last season and once he gets back, you and many others will be reminded again why he would get paid max or near max by some other team regardless.

 

What do you mean? You think exactly one solid rotation player is fixing whats happening right now? Like all of this, was for what a MLE player? That's what you are saying CP3 screwed us over on? ....Nah that's ridiculous, and the fact that you are questioning CP's wanting to win over a MLE player is really crazy to me. And you are also making the assumption that Tilman doesnt want us to spend our MLE when that most likely isnt even the case, check out @chenjy9's post.


If you dont think Cp has wanted to win as bad as those guys do then you have not followed his career so far, that simply isnt true. And what kind of person resigns from NBAPA so he can take a pay cut that barely changes anything???

Or Morey is waiting to use it like he always does??? Like he literally did that last year?

Alright, let's see what happens with that MLE money then, time will tell if you are right.


Edit: Also I would like a name(Not Ariza) of who we could sign, it is important, cause if you can't give it to me, then this a whole much to do about nothing.

 

Yes, of course I think one solid rotation player matters. And two matters more. And so on. It is silly of you to act like it doesn't matter. In fact, it's exactly that kind of thinking that had our management signing MCW on day 1 of free agency.

I never questioned that CP3 wants to win. I'm just saying he doesn't want to win as much as the people I listed. Those guys gave up money to win.

We haven't spent the MLE. We need depth. You are acting like we're securely in 4th seed and should take our time picking our next chess move. That's not what's happening here. What's happening here is this team is incapable of winning a game without CP3 no matter how bad the opponent, our bench is laughable outside EGo, and we are financially STRAPPED.

Last season is the perfect example. That's the kind of season you can dick around with your MLE. This season, we are f'ed, and you guys are going to have me believe CP3 being President of NBAPA is an excuse a Rockets fan should accept? lol No thanks. If that's why he didn't take a pay cut, that's a liability.

Mind you, I think that's a load of BS. He didn't take a pay cut because he wants the money, and because he thought he brought us a bargain in Melo.

All they need to do it dump Knight and our future picks. We have CP3 and Morey to thank for that, but we got to live with it. No one worth the full MLE is going to magically appear mid season.

As for names, I won't participate in that thank you. You have a habit of nitpicking at subjective things. I'm telling you, pick a player you like. Insert it in the example. If there are no players you like at all, then you're just not reasonable about it.

 

look kid, i know the whole point of this post is to stir some drama cuz you need attention, but please dude. hello everybody!!! don't ya'll remember when san antonio punked our ass a couple years ago and jonathan simmons made harden look like a little b****? it was very clear that we needed another all star to play with harden cuz he couldn't handle the heat? well, we got one, and yes they knew we had to pay him -- he turned down a max five year contract worth 205 mill?. and yes he was our best player last year in the playoffs and almost brought us to the promise land. so why talk noise about our player. like any one of ya'll is really gonna take a 20 million dollar a year pay cut or whatver bullshit. please. if he's over paid, harden is too! we made the trade and went for the gold and almost got to the ****ing NBA finals. and yes, this meant there was a chance that we could take a step back this year, temporarily? yes, it was a risk. what was the other choice? were there other all-stars waiting in line to play with harden we passed on to get paul? paul was probably our best option at the time and it was worth the risk. all we got to do is get the eighth seed and who cares how many games he takes off. i remember when hakeem took us from the sixth seed and we punked everyone. so what's the deal? why you gotta hate on our player? cuz durant took a paycut? so what? that's him. tilman paid paul, paid capella, and is paying james harden. why not applaud the man for that and just wait for the pieces to settle around him? and we got a bad ass 4th best player in tucker, and gordon too! what the ****? wanna go back to the days of francis and mobley or some ****? or having to try and steal omar asik? give me a ****ing break. hate on chris paul, LOL. i remember when we first made the trade, i couldn't believe it was true. The houston rockets got chris paul. LOL. is there another star out there wanting to play with james harden and his sorry ass D?

 

As I understand even if he took a sligh payout we were going to be over the cap anyway? If I was offered a 160 million I wouldn’t hesitate for a nano second to take it as well. It’s on Morey for destroying our future by offering that astronomical contract to a aging player with history of soft tissue issues who isn’t even close to being the best player on you’re current roster(Harden is significantly better)


Nonetheless it’s done and it’s going to get worse and wore. If he is injury prone at 33 god help us in 2 or 3 years.

 

This is exactly why Paul's contract made us unable to sign MLE players, again NOT BECAUSE OF THE CAP BUT BECAUSE OF THE TAX, That's what I was trying to say. You and others keep saying that even if Paul played for free we would still be over the cap. That's not the point. The point is, the tax rule together with Tilman's supposedly self-imposed cap makes the amount of Paul's salary a detriment of our ability to get better players.

I am not arguing about Ryno's contract. That's water under the bridge. I was just using Clutch's article as an example of how an overpaid player could harm roster building, NOT BECAUSE OF THE CAP BUT BECAUSE OF THE TAX.

 

You seem to be assuming things at this point to twist things into your argument:

1. Not having used the MLE yet means we will be unable to use it (entirely incorrect)
2. Tilman has mandated to not use the MLE (something other teams over the tax are also not using)
3. The LT affects the Rocket's offseason decisions (something he stated otherwise multiple times)

Let me break this down for you:

• Luxury tax level is $123.73M and tax apron is $129.73M
• MLE is $5.33M meaning to avoid the apron rule, we have to to have a team salary of $126.60M
• Rockets have a team salary of $133.99M (including CP3's)
• For us to avoid the LT, CP3 has to take a paycut of over $10M
• For us to avoid hitting the apron, CP3 has to take a paycut of over $7M

KD only took a $9.5M pay cut because he was able to join the undisputed best team in the NBA with 3 stars in their prime. There is nothing closer to a guaranteed championship than that. LBJ, Wade, and Bosh took pay cuts to create a super team with 3 stars in their prime. Now if LBJ or PG13 had agreed to come to the Rockets, I have no doubt CP3 would have taken a pay cut to make it happen but that never happened.

Ask yourself this, even if the Rockets were able to sign a FA with either MLE (or maybe Ariza with the big MLE), what do you think our odds of beating GSW this season are? 40%? 30%? Better yet, take a look at the MLE signings this past offseason and tell me which player would have realistically made a difference based on how they performed thus far this season.

 

It's a shame we never got to see Beverley, Harrell, and PJ Tucker play with each other on the same team.

 

And still have no 2nd reliable scorer or playmaker? I will pass on that personally.

 

beverley asked for a trade, remember? he didn't want to play here.