If china attacks Taiwan, what do you think America will do ?

In case anyone wonders, I love almost all things Asians, it's my art at home and in my study. I have treasures from several decades, and their treasure is not their value to anyone else, but to me. Each one has a story of when and where I got it, a face of a man with a wood carving on his knee, a child beside him, someone cooking on the barely visible stove in the room they lived in behind the store.

I love the grace, the outrageous opulence, the subtle tones of the art.

I'm closest spiritually to Buddhism. Love Buddhist temples, which are considerably more open and useful than Christian churches.

But I see the impact of the old line military and communists, and I know until they are all gone, the future cannot be fully embraced. I mean, how can we take a country seriously that outlaws mass meditation?

 

I think every man has his Shangri-La, and mine is Taiwan. Have you ever gone to another country that you felt like you were at home there? Not just welcome, but home! That's how Taiwan is for me. Doesn't matter where I've been on the island, I always felt great being there.

I once rode the train from Taipei to Taichung, which included numerous mountain tunnels of great length. Fantastic if you like trains.

It's got a lot to offer and I greatly admire, like and respect the people.

 

I bet if they took the poll from the aborigines, they would say independence... from both Chinese and Taiwanese.

They need to get those mountain people casino licenses. Otherwise, it's back to the tourist circus.

 

i'd like to second Friendly Fan on China.

i too love china. i grow up studying its language, its culture, its people, its food, both in school and at home. i know as much chinese history, literature, philosophy, poetry, cinema, etc. etc. as any chinese i know. and i think i'm rather a typical taiwanese person.

through my life in america and here in the UK, some of my closest friends are chinese. again this is pretty typical. we get on well, we cook together, we watch movies together, we discuss martial arts novels and modern chinese literature together, we play the same sports, use the same medicine, celebrate the same festivals, listen to the same music, and get along just fine.

China itself is an awesome nation. and what it has done in the past 20 years, and what it WILL DO in the next 50 years, will simply be the most significant single international event in our time (at least for an economist like myself). the lifting of 1/5 of the world's population into material prosperity, and perhaps its transformation into a stabilising force for the world, brings hope to us all.

however, no matter how great the Chinese people may be, culture and heritage does not a nation make. otherwise, singapore, taiwan, and a huge chunk of Los Angeles would have belonged to China a long time ago.

The Chinese have to make a distinction between their cultural heritage and the political state they call China. What makes most nation-state vibrant and cohesive is not only cultural heritage, but a shared sense of destiny and identity, often founded on a common history, common aspirations, common religion, etc. etc.

unfortunately, this simply isn't the case here. what convinced the South to secede from America was their perception of a different way of life and a different economic destiny. what convinced America to secede from Britain was the loss of respect for former British masters (which naturally leads to a desire to be one's own masters). the same forces are at work here.

Taiwan shares with China neither its history, its perceived destiny, nor its way of life. And certainly, Chiang's rule here, followed by Communist China's antics over the past 20 years, has made the Taiwanese people lose all respect for mainland rule.

If China really wants us back peacefully, THESE THINGS are what they've got to get to work on ASAP! But instead, we see them point missiles at us, obstruct international aid coming to us during earthquakes and epidemics, insult our popularly elected officials, etc. etc.

If China wishes a war, then we'd all be dead anyways. But not before we take all of China down with us.

Concerning the prospect of China attacking Taiwan, my personal belief is that:
"If they could, they would. But they can't, so they won't."

The cost would be too high (20yrs of development) and the risks for failure too great (<20% success even without American aid, 0% with America), for the Communist leadership to gamble their entire regime on an attack on Taiwan. They simply haven't gotten that desperate.

 

it ain't much, but it's home!

the finest food. the kindest people. the most refined and eclectic culture. the gentlest worldview. the most vibrant society. at least for me anyway. i'd like to think that we are chinese people, except we're the finest that chinese people can become. that's what taiwan is to me. a bit of ethnocentric chauvinism, but i'd be lying not to admit it.

The values we'd never share with china is their sense of righteous indignance over a "century of shame", nor will we share they desire to reclaim China's "rightful place as a triumphant hegemon sitting atop the world". These will come to no good, i fear...

i do wish more mainland chinese would be able to travel to taiwan. that way, they'd understand why we cherish it so. in my wildest dreams, i do hope that one day, all the Chinese people think of the world as we do, and all of China can be like Taiwan. and why not? i see signs of it already...

 

WOW You talk pretty tough when you yourself dont have to do any of the fighting when war brakes out. I personally think war between China and the U.S. is a bad idea. U.S. has a slight advantage , but China is a nuclear power and is not a pushover like Iraq.

 

been there, done that

 

Friendly fan:

I appreciate your zeal and interest in my country. But I can't agree with your premise. You seem to only listen to one side of story. Taiwan, as a province of China, now still governed by the government that was found to serve me, namely the Republic of China, is a beautiful island. It is an island that is settled by my Chinese ancestors for centuries. It is an island that the generations of my previous government has governed. A piece of land that is governed mostly by Chinese regimes since its infancy. It's is now governed by a government that's the former central government of ours, now degraded to an illigitimate local government as a result of civil war.

No, we Chinese won't forget about Taiwan. We are developing our country and Taiwan is part of our home. It's not just the home of Taiwanese but also us the mainlanders. For hundreds of years my mainland ancestors travelled to and resided in Taiwan freely at their will, save for the time of foreign occupation. For the very sake of it being their land, their home! A civil war broke out, my fellow Chinese got hostile against each other, my former government lost and hide in a part of my HOME until today. Once what was a part of my home and the freedom to visit it is no longer within my reach for the sake of a stupid civil war. I lost my freedom through the injustice of history and I refuse to lose furthermore.

During their hideout, the local people of Taiwan's mentality gradually changed, sadly, to the worse direction of China as a whole. They lost their confidence and love for the Chinese culture, for the astronomical failures and turmoils of China in recent history you mentioned. They view China as a burden, the Chinese identity as a disgrace. Hence to desire to disown China. It's their choices if they don't wanna be Chinese anymore, although despicable in my eyes, are their choices. I have to swallow that. However, it's not their right to isolate a piece of my land, which is still maintained and brought to prosperity by my government, in the case of a civil war, and try to deprive my freedom to visit a part of my home at my will that's located overseas.

It's not about rhetorics. Rhetorics is what is used by the Taiwan independence followers and hostile westerners to denounce China its universally accepted rights. Rhetorics is going with some culturally discriminating Taiwanese bias on China, followed by outdated stereotypes of China, to denounce Chinese people in every frail way of their home.

Just go happily and be the cannon fodders of a bunch of morally despicable Taiwanese for they happened to have your love as they have the same political system of yours, and they are not afraid to say they love Americans so one day you can be their cannon fodders, in case one day a war truly breaks out. However, you can be ensure that there is no way for us to foget about a part of our home, our land, our government, that is named Taiwan. Let it be out of our reach, let it be ruled by our former govenment which has now turned its direction to undermine us, let it be being isolated by Chinese descendants who now dream of the demise and collapse of China, let it be democratic or dictatorial, let it be more advanced than our main house, let it be if some countries want to poke their noses into it, we don't care and we will go waves after waves for Chinese won't lose their land no more.

 

Actually, I've learned alot reading this thread.

Actually, I read Panda's posts carefully, and I think he does a pretty good job explaining his point of view.

Actually, ya' do.

 

For fifty years China has been claiming Taiwan is theirs. The truth is, for all of mankind's history, military might and the will to conquer has been what has established soverignty. China didn't take Taiwan by force during the civil war so it isn't a subject of PRC now.

So if the PRC leadership wants to risk a military defeat, the deaths of millions of people and an fatal economic boycott over an insignificant island (sorry Taiwan but 20 million is an insignificant fraction of 1 billion), bring on the insanity! The US never fails to participate in it and we are damn good at it.

 

"Just go happily and be the cannon fodders of a bunch of morally despicable Taiwanese for they happened to have your love as they have the same political system of yours, and they are not afraid to say they love Americans so one day you can be their cannon fodders, in case one day a war truly breaks out."


Panda, you must understand... we are the land of our fodders.

 

I gather that you are Chinese, born and reared in China, and loyal to China, are you not? That creates the entire basis of your understanding of the issues at work, the history you believe to be true, the history or truth you believe to be real. Each of us is a captive of our experience.

My experience is both there and here. I don't know of your experience, either there or here, I don't know how long you've had it, or how broad your life experiences are. But I can tell you that your view of Taiwan is not shared by many who live there or came from there, and I value their opinion more than the opinions of mainland Chinese on the issue of Taiwan.

You will no more convince me that China has a legitimate claim to Taiwan than to convince me that England has a legitimate claim to the US.

You tell me what you wish the situation would be, a fantasy built on a message your culture taught you. I tell you what is, what has been, and what will continue to be.

China chases these cultural butterflies, and wonders why the world still thinks it a backward old man, too set in his ways to get off his front porch, muchless join the world.

Create a GNP that can at least buy everyone a bicycle before scheming on Taiwan, an economy vastly superior. It is China's unmitigated passion for the largely meaningless that continues to hobble it in international matters. From repression of political opponents to corrupt military and communist officials to repression of intellectuals, China has a ton of problems it has to address. Taiwan is a convenient way to avoid addressing the things China SHOULD be worrying about.


Panda, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but you guys need to stop with the Taiwan "they are our province" stuff. When the mainland begins to approach the success of Taiwan, maybe Taiwan joining the PRC will happen, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Taiwan is robust and China is ailing and barely creeping out of the 1970s.

Fix your country and stop worrying about Taiwan. Taiwan should be the last worry of China, and it's pointless, because it won't happen. Not with US interests there so strongly. The US will not let that happen.

 

Friendly Fan:

I would not use other's place of birth and educational backgrounds to imply their position as being shaky. That can be used both ways and hardly constructive. Let's see, your view of China is based on the anti-China proganda the Taiwanese independance followers spewed over the years because that's that where you spent time living in. Can you read Chinese or you get to know China in Taiwan through their "cut and paste" Chinese history? It's up to you to believe that the historical views your Taiwanese friends who gets riled up at being called Chinese instilled into you as the truth and only truth. As much as the Japanese who try to rewrite history to make their WWII war crimes look glorified, it seems their Taiwanese brainchilds are copying the same tactic to suit their purposes. I would call that successful colonial education.

To shed light on the historical views on China of radical Taiwanese, aren't you aware of the widely perception of brainwashed Taiwanese who think the Japanese colonial reigning as benevolent and progressive? while the fact that Japanese treated Taiwanese as secondary citizens in a culturally genocidal way? A radical Taiwanese is on this board to answer that question for you, in case you missed this in your tenure.

To let you better understand my position, I'm a Chinese that's born in China, partially raised in Hong Kong, received college education in USA and I'm living in Shenzhen, the port city next to Hong Kong right now. I'm loyal to China because I'm a Chinese, just like you are loyal to USA being an American, but let us not confuse being loyal to a country means being loyal to its government. I don't think my position would be better served in understanding China if I was born and raised in Taiwan, rather, I see no better way to understand what's going on inside and outside of China and its history by living in it and outside of it.

Be sure that my feelings are not hurt by your words in any way, one needs to be strong to be a Chinese these days, and those who have weak minds choose to abandon ship and run away. On the other hand, I'm worried about to hurt your feelings for your understanding on China is lacking and outdated, China isn't barely creeping out of 1970's. China is a new country compared to 30 years ago. I won't go in length of China's changes as it's not the subject here. BTW, the USA had nothing to do with the opium war unless you think USA was part of British empire in 1840's.

I don't need to convince you that Taiwan is part of China, your country and 185 other countries say so. I don't need to convince you that America is part of British empire now, British Empire was the past and now England acknowledged your independance. China would never acknowledge the independence of Taiwan and I plan to visit Taiwan at my free will without guns pointing at me later on. Military interference of USA isn't feared by China in case a war breaks out as a result of declaration of independance. We aren't keen on using forces but won't hesitate when we have to. Take it or leave it for all I care. We would be satisfied at the formal acknowledge of one China policy at whatever conditions the Taiwanese have. Unification upon China being democratic and developed? No problem. So far they aren't doing that, I'm content at watching Taiwan being slowly drawed back towards China.

Gene Patterson: Slow down a bit will ya? The civil war is not finished, it's just in a stalemate. As far as war against USA, that's based on the guts of the radical Taiwanese declare independance first, so far, they don't have the guts. So point your fingers at the Taiwan administration. War or not that's their choice.

 

Panda, when I said Each of us is a captive of our experience. I meant it. I didn't just mean you. I meant me, too.

I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that the US and China will have hostilities over Taiwan. Not even Bush wants that. Now if you guys took out Lil Kim, maybe we can do business ....

 

That was some excellent writing Panda.

What gets me is that the US is somewhat responsible for that dispute by our support of the Nationalist 50 years ago. General Chiang was a dictator and not some champion of democracy. Yet we supported him along with numerous other murderers. Bush's "Whatever it takes!" to defend Taiwan left me queasy to think that we would actually get involved militarily over Taiwan. Do we really want to fight a war to defend Taiwan? What's the cost/benefit? If we get involved in Taiwan, how about helping the Kashmiris, Chechens or Africans. Those people are actually being killed. We should push both sides to the negotiating table, and not encourage any rhetoric that might increase tension. That's what a responsible world leader should be doing.

 

It's funny you bring that up. I thought it was funny when I was learning about how we were helping the Chinese in WWII and the American advisors over there thought the Nationalist government was a complete joke and completely inept and actually liked working with the Communists more and soon after their feelings were known they were recalled back to America.

Bush's "Whatever it takes!" was more rhetoric. He doesn't want to actually fight a war with China over Taiwan...no one does. Bush's stance overall with the Chinese has been much tougher than Clinton's was. This overall tougher stance with China showing that we won't be pushed around just to make China happy with us as we were like under Clinton has put us back in better control of the Sino-U.S. relationship which is a good thing. Bush talking tough was necessary is what I am trying to say.

 

Panda, when I read stuff like this I get more than a little worried. It sounds straight out of the "National Socialist" gameplan which included the anexation of "historic national homelands" in Austria and the Sudentenland, as well as the invasion of Poland because of their status as an "artifical nation". The logical conclusion to this was, of course, Nazi's giving every Jew they could find a cyclon-b shower.

I have respect for you as a rational poster, and hope that you would reflect on this. Perhaps I simply misunderstand something, but I see a "slippery slope" to your logic.

 

Somewhat responsible for the dispute? Interesting extrapolation. And I love the line about sponsoring murderers! I guess you forgot about his opposition - namely Mao, and how many more MILLIONS of Chinese he murdered. We supported Chiang because he was the strongest threat against the Japanese, and because he was the recognized leader of China at the time. We continued to support him because he was a staunch ally in the fight against communism. And in case you missed it, Taiwan is now a democracy, while the communist alternative is nowhere close. Sounds like a good choice to me. We continue to support Taiwan because they are a democracy threatened by a totalitarian regime. We continue to support them because they are a longtime ally that we will not allow to be rolled over by a dying regime. What would you have us do?

And we are not 'getting involved' in Taiwan, we have been there, as you strangely point out, since the beginning. We have been 'militarily involved' in the issue for quite a long time. Apparently you missed it when Clinton (since you hold Bush in some contempt) send the 7th Fleet into the Taiwan Strait to stop PRC saber rattling in '95.

 

It's no secret that US military personnel don't find every assignment overseas to their liking, and don't particularly care for the host country. Taiwan is not one of those. Everyone who serves there loves it - not just the sights, but everything about it.

There is a strong, strong bond over the past 50 plus years between Taiwan and all those service men and women who have been stationed at or near there in the past 50 years. People don't always feel that way towards the Phillipines, or Okinawa, or Japan, or Korea, or Diego Garcia, or Guam, but everyone loves Taiwan.

This bond is substantial, and it is made stronger by the business ties. Taiwan is tied into the world community in a way China is not. Everyone wants to buy cheap goods from China, but investing IN China is much trickier. Decisions are made painfully slow and inefficiently. There is no clarity in how one addresses problems. Party types can only think in Party rhetoric, and are largely left over cold warriors. Military have power, and there's an element of latter day warlord in that. The Justice system is a reflection of the excesses of the past.

We all know that Taiwan is part of the world in 2003. It doesn't have one foot planted firmly in 1949, like the mainland. It can be trusted to be rational and to have a legal system that is reputable and dependable. To quote MARATHON MAN, it's SAFE.