Which is still better than having a horrible record, i.e. what happens to teams when LeBron leaves. And didn't our championship core also have a bad record in 95? No, he's ok. But no team with him as their 2nd best player is "stacked". One great player in Ewing followed by some good ones. No other star level player on the roster. And none of those players had a Pippen alongside them, much less a Rodman as well. None of those teams win 50+ games without the HOF player. Maybe Orlando. That's it. I'm one of those that say stop trying to discount the clear talent advantage Jordan had over his peers when he won titles. That's all.
1 Pippen or many near all star level players that know their role? Which would you rather have with any top 10 player? Ewing and Pippen would equally lose to Jordan and the Knicks or Pacers STACKED rosters IMO. You seem to think in terms of 2010's that a team can only be stacked if it has 3-4 superstars on it. Saying the Bulls were only 2 games worse without Jordan completely ignores that they were a 67 win team the season prior, and 61 before that. In 93, Paxson was banged up most of the year, as was Cartwright. MJ missed 4 games, they won only 1 of those games if im not mistaken which would make them an easy 60 win team with him. Miami missed the playoffs by 1 game without LeBron with Bosh only playing 44 games and Wade only 62 games and they had Dragic for 26 games and Whiteside for 48 games of which he started 32. Health has been the only thing from having kept Miami from being in the middle of the pack of the East without LeBron. You can mention Dennis Rodman all you want, but the fact is Jordan already had 3 rings before Rodman and most of Rodman's accolades were from his days with the Pistons. He couldn't even be relied on to play a full season. He played 64 games with only 57 of them as a starter in the 72 win season. He played only 55 games total the next year in the 69 win season. Jordan's teams were talented, but no where near as talented overall as the Warriors or Cavs or Heat. Dennis Rodman 58 Total career Playoff games with the Bulls: 5.4 PPG/ 41.2% FG/ 59.3% FT 11.3 RPG/ 1.8 APG 0.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 1.8 TOV Overwhelming talent right? Scottie Pippen 2nd 3Peat: 58 Games: 17.6 PPG/ 40.8% FG/ 29.3% 3PT/ 70% FT 7.4 RPG 5 APG 2.1 SPG 0.9 BPG 2.5 TOV MJ only played in an all-star game with 1 of his teammates...Pippen. Let's take a look at a few other EC opponents of Jordans during 6 titles: Bulls All Stars: MJ and Pippen/ Rodman(Pistons) Grant(MJ retired) BJ armstrong(MJ retired)/ Cartwright (1X NY) HOF Coach Phil Jackson Knicks All Stars: Ewing/ Starks(Also SMOTY)/ Oakley/ Rivers(ATL)/ Mason(Also SMOTY)/ Blackman (4XDAL)/ M. Jackson(NY-Also ROTY)/ A.Houston(2x)/ Larry Johnson(2X CHH/ROY)/ Cummings (2X MIL/ROY)/ KiKi V (2x DEN) Mo Cheeks(4X Phil) HOF Coach Pat Riley/ JVG Pacers All Stars: RMiller/ C.Mullin ( 5X GS)/ Detlef (3X-2X SMOTY)/ Smits/ D.Davis/ A.Davis/ M. Jackson(NY-Also ROTY)/ R.Pierce (MIL-2x SMOTY)/ HOF Coach L.Brown Heat All Stars: Mourning(7x + 2x DPOTY)/ T.Hardaway(5X GS-MIA)/ G.Rice (3X CHH) S.Smith (ATL)/ Mashburn(NOH)/ Majerle(3x PHO)/ Willis (ATL)/ J. Malone(2x WSB) HOF Coach Pat Riley I could probably keep it going with ATL and a few other teams that had many more All Star/former all stars on their team during the Bulls 6 championships. But, hey if you think the East was just as weak in MJ's days as LeBrons...nothing i can do to convince you if facts and stats do nothing to change your opinion. I guess...remove the Bulls form the NBA in the 90s. Remove the Cavs and Heat from the Lebron era. Which conference would you rather watch if you are forced to watch every series? 90s East or 2k/2010s East? I think the answer is easy.
Wut? How does nobody knowing Pippen would be good help MJ's legacy? 5th lottery pick in the draft would be good....who would've expected it? MJ wasn't a free agent, he was under contract in the Bulls so he had no choice in the matter. Once Pippen started playing and Rodman joined, MJ realized he had something there. If MJ is half the competitor everyone says he is, when he retired and came back he should've gone to the worst team in the league. When you play with the 2nd best wing player and the best rebounder in the era you don't have the right to say "I would've wanted to beat Magic and Bird, not join them".
Well obv we have an MJ fanboy here. What does all star nominations have to do with the strength of the team or not? Rodman, Paxson, Kerr etc might not have been allstars but they are all great, near star players themselves. Rodman's stats do not reflect his genius IQ, ferocity in the paint and amazing defense. You act like an NBA historian but then you completely distort the facts. Rodman or Bosh, who you got? Gimme a break! Mo Cheeks got an all star in Philly unfortunately he was in NY at the time, I guess that matters? S Smith was an all star in atlanta but he was in Miami...nope, MJ's road is harder. If MJ is so amazing and his teammates are so weak how come he only won anything after 9 years? If he was soemone who could win by himself and didn't need a stacked team around him then he should've won earlier, not waited for Pippen and Rodman and Pistons to grow old. He even went to the Wizards and didn't do squat, if he was really all that how come he only achieved something when he had a stacked team? MJ fanboyism is pretty dumb, his fans always shift the goal posts just so MJ can remain the Goat. You know who has the most titles? Russell! You know who has titles both as a player and coach? Russell! You know who had an amazing rival? Russell! You know who developed and founded the team defense everyone is using today? Russell! Yet MJ is the GOaT and not Russell because supposedly his competition was too weak. Now that same people are again arguing Lebron's era is too weak. Wtf! If MJ's EAST was the toughest in history how come nobody remembers anyone there besides MJ? Ewing's Knicks whose greatest achievement was just reaching the NBA finals was a powerhouse? Yeah right gimme a break
It really depends on How he beats them. If the dubs ball out but he pulls through with dominating performances then there's a discussion. If they just choke or someone else like Kyrie takes center stage then maybe not. I do however think that the best this one season can propel him to is GOAT 1.b. If you want to supplant the GOAT you have to do something amazing that he never did and I feel like team hopping does have some effect on legacy when we're talking about the all time greats.
Miami team was 3 star team, sure LBJ and Bosh and Dwade are amazing. But after the 3 of them you have a team that would win top 1 pick in the NBA, their next best player was 38 yr old Ray Allen, how is that a stacked team? Bulls only had 2 all stars but good players dont have to be all stars. Bulls were stacked top to bottom their Cs for example didnt get any recognition but were pretty good and would probably wipe the floor with Capela today. Ryan Anderson is an 18M player today, well any of the Bulls role players like Horace Grant, Paxson, Kerr would wipe the floor with him. Kerr vs Allen is comparison shows how bad your favoritism goes. Allen is a HOF player but only for the entirety of his career. You really think prime Bulls Kerr is inferior to about to retire Miami Ray Allen? Really?
Well MJ didn't just team hop he also retired (QUIT) 3 times and would have left basketball entirely to play baseball if he didn't suck at it. At least LBJ is committed to basketball. Maybe he can MJ it up and quit to play American Football. I never understand how the posters here who hate Dwight Tmac and Harden for quitting on the Rox glorify MJ who QUIT on the sport altogether. If MJ had talent as a baseball player would he have come back to basketball?
You'd draft him #1 overall, but would you give him the ball over Jordan with 30 seconds left in game 6 and you're down 2? Would you? Would you really?
Good point about the Bulls role players being underrated and so good. I wonder why they were so good.......
Had Jordan stayed then left for good in 99 we wouldn't even be having this discussion. His numbers would be so far out of reach.
But he didn't stay. He left and quit basketball to play baseball and only came crawling back when he sucked at baseball. MJ is basically baseball's sloppy seconds.
dirk beat a team of lebron, wade, and bosh in their prime. does that make him the GOAT? its not about who you beat or how you beat them, its about who dominated their era more than anyone else. to see that, just look at the finals MVPs, season MVPs, and rings. he who has the greatest collection of all 3 should be the GOAT. 1) jordan - 6FMVP, 5MVP, 6R, 1DPOY 2) russell - 0FMVP (because they didn't have that back then), 5MVP, 11R (also would've had a ton of DPOY if they existed back then) 3) kareem - 2FMVP, 6MVP, 6R 4) magic - 3FMVP, 3MVP, 5R 5) lebron - 3FMVP, 4MVP, 3R 6) duncan - 3FMVP, 2MVP, 5R 7) bird - 2FMVP, 3MVP, 3R 8) shaq - 3FMVP, 1MVP, 4R 9) kobe - 2FMVP, 1MVP, 5R 10) wilt - 1FMVP, 4MVP, 2R 11) hakeem - 2FMVP, 1MVP, 2R, 2DPOY lebron still has a lot of work to do to catch the guys in the top 3. still, how can anyone be mad with a top 5 all-time career? only blemish is that he might have the record for most times losing the finals. has anyone lost the nba finals more than him?
What facts did i distort? I listed teams they made the all star game with...as if to say what kind of talent they were...Erase all of it then...Pippen the only all star teammate of MJ's career. What distorted fact is that? I gave you factual #'s and all you can say is Steve Kerr was a near all star level player. WOW. No one can get you 6-8 ppg quite like the near all star Steve Kerr can! Prime Bosh over 36 year old Dennis Rodman? Yeah. I would take that. lol. If MJ is so amazing? As if he wasn't prior to the first ring? He was facing a bunch of championship stacked teams lol...by himself. Pippen wasn't an all star til 90 and they lost in game 7 of the ECF that very season in which Det won it all. I think it all shows pretty clear that MJ only needed 1 more all star help to start winning. Pistons got old? Yeah..29 year old Isiah Thomas, 27 year old Joe Dumars, 29 year old Dennis Rodman. ANCIENT. By comparison LeBron only beat the Celtics when KG(34), Allen(35), Pierce(33) were all much older than the Pistons core which is usually prime age isn't it? Nah. You're right. They were old. The Pistons won the championship the year b4 MJ beat(swept) them, but yeah...they were too old man. I distort facts. Steve Kerr is a near All-Star player. No one ever said MJ's Eastern Conference was the best ever lol...maybe/probably in the 80s when MJ was young. But, in MJ's prime, i never said the 90s East was the greatest conference. This all started by someone saying LeBrons road in the East is just as easy as MJ's was. I gave nothing but facts and rattled off HOF player led teams surrounded by great role players(many of whom were all star players in their career...not just "near" all star players) and factual records of 50+ to 60 win teams in the East during MJ's championship years Steve Kerr is a near All-Star.
hahaha you're completely out of your mind... Bulls minus Pippen, and Rodman would wipe the floor with those teams? Look out guys! Steve Kerr/Judd Buchler/Luc Longley going to run this league! Steve Kerr a near all star and better than any age Ray Allen? Oh man....i'm really laughing out loud. Thanks Man. Ray Allen at 38 years old(last season) was a full point better than Steve Kerr's PEAK season hahahaha.
The GOAT in my mind will always be MJ. GOAT will never ever leave his own team to join another super star and other friends. So that ship already sailed. You can throw all the numbers you want but you can't convince me. IMO, LeBron is the most durable super star playing in a very water-down league and conference. The current state of the NBA is a big joke.
They don't have to crush them, just beat them. I already think Lebron is in MJ territory after what he did last year. They beat the Warriors, best record ever, on the road in a game 7 and he ran the length of the court to get a game winning block after playing a ton of minutes. They was freaking epic. Lebron is one of the most physically dominant players I've ever seen and unlike Shaq, Lebron is incredibly skilled.
Here is the basic difference between MJ and Lebron and the main reason why to me Lebron will never be the goat. MJ is a player who climbed the mountain to reach its peak. He was getting destroyed by the Pistons in the playoffs year after year but you didn't see him cry about it, you didn't see him collude with Bird or Magic to guarantee himself a ring. He climbed the mountain and overcame that adversity which is something a real champion does. As for Lebron, he didn't climb any mountains. He colluded to form a super team in Miami because he couldn't handle the adversity or pressure. The east had been super weak for the majority of his career and rather than climb the mountain he rented a helicopter to drop him off at the summit so that he could take selfies with his little butt buddy Wade and make a joke of the NBA .
Pts scores is supposed to be the barometer of success? Bulls played a half court offense, had slower pace and of course allocated more shots to MJ and Pippen. Allen was a zero defensively and hitting shot erratically, why do you think he was kicked out from Celtics in first place? But anyway continue to pretend LBJ played with HOFers from 2-14 while MJ played with trash. Quick question Bulls without MJ pippen and Rodman vs Miami without LBJ, Bosh and Wade who would win?
