Go check my breakdown, the times I noted and compare it with your tape. On 2 occasions, Wilcox was psuedo doubling Yao by playing the passing lane. On another occasion, a lob was possible before Drobjnak dropped down to guard against it. All this happened Ivan, whether you actually recognized it or not. In the 3rd quarter, Yao, without reason, was only ignored once when he was in single coverage. (the Cat play @ 5:58). Once Ummmm. Pike didnt even play during the 3rd quarter, except for the last 30 seconds and he never passed it to Yao during this time. Well have to agree to disagree. I specifically noted the time of Yao's post ups in the 3rd quarter so that people could have the opportunity to review the tape and let e know if they saw it a different way. I you are going to dismiss my breakdown, at least give me the courtesy of saying which plays were noted wrong on my part instead of just making a blanket statement that I am somehow not being honest when objectively reviewing what happened during those specific plays. I am 100% certain that my breakdown of each play occured as I have documented them. Please give me the times in the 3rd quarter that Yao was in single cover and was ignored besides the Cat play at 5:58 in the 3rd.
Munco, Did you not see my breakdown?? I thought that clearly explained why Yao only had 6 touches and on all but one occasion, it was due to things other than him being ignored (i.e. double teams with and without the ball, etc.). The fact that our offense went into a set with the itention of getting him the ball on 13 different occcasions should tell you that the team is not ignoring him. I agree. The lob is a timing play, and ultimately, semi high risk because of zones. Its not a given that this play can be executed every time Yao is fronted.
I have nothing against it Gary. But a pass first point guard is not the answer to solving the way defenses play Yao, and that is what we are talking about. You seem to advocate a pass first point guard because you feel Steve and Cat are ignoring Yao way too much in the post. I have maintained that for most of this year that the reason why Yao is not getting consistent touches, is because defenses are playing him different every game. Why else would he get 8 shots in one game, and then 15 shots the next?? A pass first point guard will do little to prevent teams from throwing double teams/fronting/etc. at Yao.
Personally, I don't think Yao is quick and/or nimble enough to receive a pass on a roll to the basket on a consistant basis. However, what I would like to see more of, is Yao popping out off the PnR and taking a few more face up jumpers. I think its a good shot for him and would save him some from having to battle for post position (thus keeping him a lil fresher the rest of the game). Easy, I didn't mean to insinuate that I am anti fast break because of Yao. I should clarify. In my response to Gary, I mean that I am not for forcing a fast break when its not there, especially, at the expense of getting Yao a touch in a more controlled half court set. Getting the ball up quickly and getting the defense on its heels before they are set works well for some teams, namely Dallas. We just don't have the personnel to do something like that on a consistant basis without turning the ball over quite a bit. Seriously, if we tried to be the Dallas Mavericks, then Yao will get even less touches than he does now, and we would probably average close to 30 TOs a game. Overall, thats just not JVG ball ya know. Overall, I am happy with the amount of fast breaks we have each game, although, I can't say I am happy with the execution. I like JVG's overall style of a controlled, inside-out half court offense with the occasional fast break to keep the D honest.
Codell...buddy...as you're a great b-ball poster, and this is a great b-ball post, I'm not gonna bust your chops about asking the same old question I've answered several times, including in the opening post re: watching last night/being just about last night. As to your post, I don't know what yo say. I am hearing conflicting reports. Certainly yous makes it seem less of an extreme issue last night, in terms of never even trying to go to the hot hand. What I'm having a problem with is reconciling your account with what the announcers...who are by no means YOF rolleyes: )...were saying. Either way, though, I am relieved to hear it was not as bad as I had heard, and I thank you greatly for breaking it down...That's my biggest frustration as a Rockets fan; not being able to see so many games. You know how much I like to break them down, analyze plays, schems, etc., and missing so many forces me to rely on others' accounts, which have mostly proved accurate in retrospect. I am hoping your account of last night is more accurate than theirs, as I expect. That said, however, this doesn't go far towards addressing the overall problem, which I myself have seen on numerous occassions in games I could break down, and last night, while possibly not being as extrem an example as it initially seemd, was certainly not an example of the problem being resolved either. There are ways to beat this kind of zone pressure, if your team is committed. I think we need role definition, and I think right now it's too vaguely defines, partly becaise JVG is trying to be politic. This is supposition, not conclusion, BTW...Either way, the scheme as we were told pre-season, and about which I was so excited, and the scheme as it's playing out are miles apart. What the problem is is important, not in terms of blame assessment, as so many seem to prefer, but in terms of resolution. I myself couldn't care if it's Yao's fault, or Steve's fault, or JVG's fault, or Rudy's fault, so long as it's identified and corrected. The longer we get hung up in attacking Steve to prove it's his fault, or attacking Yao to prove it's his fault, or saying there is no problem so that it's no one's fault, the longer we alloe the problem to set. Is it a problem that's crippling us right now? Hardly...but it's hamstringing us from taking the next step and becoming a perennial contender. I'd rather tackle it now. I'm sure you agree...
First, I am not always faulting individual Rockets, but, as I have maintained in this thread, am trying to show that the whole "Yao touches" problem is more a result of what the defense is giving us. Second, I don't really agree with your last paragraph, for several reasons. For the most part, I don't see "icing Yao" as a problem, or see it has something that is hamstrining us on our journey to elite status. The reason being is, opponents are focusing more on stopping Yao than the rest of the team, including Steve and Cat. I am perfectly fine with that, because as far as I am concerned, its a means to an end. Right now, Yao's teamates, more often than not, are taking advantage of the defense overplaying Yao. Once we establish, consistently, that Steve, Cat and co. are more than capable of winning games on their own as a direct result of the attention they pay to Yao off the ball, or with the ball, then teams are going to be more hesistant to let that happen, and thus, will give Yao more opportunities to beat them. Like I said before, its a dance. "If the left hand don't get you ....then the right hand will." Hell, what we are seeing now, is how we won with Hakeem. There were numerous times where defenses limited the damage Hakeem could do, and players like Smith and Maxwell ended up taking more shots than Dream did. We won two titles this way. In 1994-1995, this was hardly something to be concerned about, because it was a winning formula. Nowadays, its the subject of 3 or 4 threads daily. Why??? It baffles me how some, including yourself, can insinuate that certain wins are hollow because Yao didnt get as many shots/touches that some would have liked or that the offense wasn't run through him. Myself, I love it when Yao's mere presense makes his teamates better and affords them the oppotunity to win games. In comparison, I will be equally excited when teams realize that they have to pay more respect to Yao's teamates, and thus, allow him to beat them one on one (GS game is a perfect example of this). Overall, this team is still evolving and will continue to evolve for months and/or years to come. Teams will learn that we can beat them with Yao touching it alot, or, without touching it alot. They will have to pick their poison. Last, do Yao's teamates (not just Steve and Cat) overlook Yao in single coverage post position?? Yes, it happens, but not enough to be concerned about IMO, as I only see it a few times a game . I suspect Shaq and other great big men get overlooked a few times a game on occasion also. Its obviously not habitual with Yao, or teams would be paying so much off the ball attention to him.
Codell, As usual we agree to disagree. My point was that it shouldn't matter if he's doubled with/without the ball (pick your strategy), when your big man is 6 for 6 you make sure he gets the ball and find ways to make sure he touches it. When I see other big man i.e. Shaq, Duncan get hot they still touch the ball. In fact our team seems to have the most difficulty in getting the big man the ball when he's hot. Although, part of it id definitely Yao's fault and his outside game is not as good as Duncan's so he won't get the ball at the elbow or top of the key too often. While the intention of getting him the ball on 13 occassions is nice, the end result was 6 touches. Is it still okay if the next team we play decides to try the same type of scheme? As a hypothetical question, what if all the teams in the league use this strategy, is it still okay for him not to touch the ball regularly?
Yes, Yao and Steve are royle players in Rockets. But the game is a team one. So both Yao and Steve should get their teamats involved in the game. Yao has no problem in team ball. Steve is geting used to solve the problem because he is shooting less and assist more this season. Just give him time under JVG.
We certainly will disagree. Doubling with or without the ball plays a huge role in whether or not a player is able to get more touches/shots. How you can be so dismissive of this, is beyond me. You address this in black and white, without recognizing the gray of taking what the defense allows and exploiting that. We have done this quite often this year, and are 9-3 because of it. Yao is not good enough (yet) to be taking shots when he is doubled and attempting an entry pass, when someone is blantanly overplaying the passing lane (as Wilcox) did, is very low %. Last, why do Yao's touches have to be forced when the defense is taking that away?? Why can't we let Yao's teamates take advantage of that and win the game like we have been?? You pretty much explained yourself why Duncan doesnt have a problem with touches. As far as Shaq goes, he certainly doesnt think he gets the touches he should, or else Kobe and him wouldnt be complaining about it in the media every month. Please explain why Shaq only shoots 8-11 times some games, and over 20 times in others. Perhaps its due to the openings the defense is, or is not giving him?? If the next team tries it, and Yao's teamates are able to take advantage and win the game, then I most certainly would be ok with it. Absolutely. As far as your hypothetical question, again, absolutely. As long as his teamates take advantage and win 9 out of every 12 games, I am fine with him not getting touches. As long as teams feel his is enough of a threat that they just refuse to let him beat them, then that is just as good of a touch in my book. Overall, your hypothetical situation would never happen, because defenses will eventually relax their attention on Yao once his teamates prove that they will more than likely beat them if they don't. Yao doesn't have to touch the ball to make his teamates better. You really need to see his presense in that light, instead of just in terms of "touches".
I agree the announcers probably aren't YOF, but I think we've all seen plenty of times where the announces didn't seem to know what they were talking about. I think Codell had the benefit of tape review before making his post, and the announcers were just calling it during the live action.
Yao said that he did not feel well in the second half, he can only play defence. After the game he got some medicine to get it over.
If people would just watch the NBA regularly they wouldn't whine so much! People should watch San Antonio against a good defense and see what Duncan has to go through to get good postion with the ball. He often faces up the basket, something Yao Ming is not good at. He has to be very physical, he has to be mobile, and he has to demand the ball. And even then sometimes he struggles.
Codell is an apologist for the guards, esp Cuttino. He always wants to paint a rosy picture of things. He always wants to argue for the status quo. I don't know why he's so afraid of just criticism, but he leaps to the defense of our boneheads every time. I don't know what horrible event made him so afraid of change, but there must be some personal reason he resists every single trade proposal, roster juggle, time out call or play-calling. Everything is as it should be, nothing can ever be improved. Just give the ball to Cat. Why not? It's anyone else's fault if he bricks with 5 defenders or fouls immediately after. Tell Yao to be a better leader. When you discounted p&r you discredited your entire post. You can't play the game of basketball without p&r, unless you are Rudy Tomjanovich or Moochie Norris, and are very content with losing. It's part of every single plan - horns, motion, princeton, ucla, triangle, whatever... p&r IS basketball. Only our imbecile guards are incapable of running such a basic form with two possible 7', 280-310' picks. It astounds me that JVG doesn't throw a folding chair. JJ is light years ahead of those two. Too bad he can't shoot, but geez, let him hit the roll. Sweetie hit the nail on the head, in her usually ascerbic way, but came to the wrong conclusion. If Yao is going to be the Man, yes we have to get rid of cuttino, just as Golden State had to axe Jamison to develop Dunleavy, and Yao is a universe ahead of Dunleavy. Sure. But The Answer to keeping Yao hot (no freeze) is the Triangle. Yao can set up the strong side and dicatates who scores and who doesn't. He posts and reposts. On the weak side, we let Steve operate 1 on 1. That's his strength. He can zip one inside every now and then too for the highlight reel, fine. But ultimately, Steve and the PF should operate independantly of Yao and the 1 3. If Steve can play the two man game with a real power forward and Yao works the triangle you can't stop the team. If Steve can't, shoot, trade his butt - he's not worth his contract. I fully believe Steve can earn his contract given 1/2 the 1/2 court to operate in; and that Yao can dominate his. Playing dump it in in a low-post mudhole is only going to get jerks like Cat jacking off.
I disagree slightly with this analysis. I think it still does happen enough to be concerned about (but I will concede that it didn't happen much in the Clipps game, and the situation is improving). However, while Yao is not yet in the same league as Shaq or Hakeem, he plays a different, and in some ways more important, role in the Rox offense. Specifically, night in and night out, he usually has the biggest advantage over his opponent relative to the other positions on the team. He is arguably the smartest player on the team, and is definitely the best half court passer on the team. The offense should run through him when he has established position in the post. Every time. And it still doesn't. Why?
You know, not a single one of those explanations tendered in the original post cover every single incident of Yao not getting the ball. But all of them combined do. I think MacBeth's reluctance to come to terms with the situation is part of his reluctance to admit that Steve's hero complex and Mobley's mad gunner complex does contribute to the overall problem, even if they're not the primary reasons. I think, in MacBeth's eagerness to be positive, he's ignoring Occam's razor. Sorry, if every other factor you mention in your very comprehensive list don't apply... then it pretty much as to be the final one. Much more logical to choose that one rather than go hunting some sort of holy grail answer to escape the answer you don't want. It's really very unfortunate that the answer "Steve and Cuttino are part of the problem" has become so polarizing. People either seem to want to say they're the whole problem... or none at all. I find both positions untenable.
pasox2 I will let codell respond, but I honestly don't think you could be further off the mark. Codell's just an apologist? Maybe he's just a rockets fan who does not see priority number 1 as "ASSIGING BLAME TO X PLAYER" (wonder who x usually is or isn't...) 24 hours a day, win or lose, whenever the Rockets aren't absolutely perfect. If that's the point of this message board, then count me out. However, I don't think it is. You can have your sweetie, I'll take codell's analysis 7 days a week and twice on sunday.
Sam, both me and you know codell good enough to know that pasox is way off the mark in regards to codell. He has always been aboutt watching for and discussing the technicalities of the team's play without too much bias. Matter of fact, when he first got here, he was quick to jump on someone for being too much of a homer to see things the way they really are. It doesnt always have to be about "placing blame"...sometimes the enitre team is responsible for not pulling together to win a game.
I think you're an A** Kisser. Just because Coddell's name is BOLD BLUE on the chat line doesnt mean that we have to kiss his A**. Free your mind and take BLUE PILL. I gotta agree with some of the other guys heres. Coddell is somewhat of a apologists. Either that or he is Cat's brother-in-law or Steve Francis cousin. "I know a WIN is a WIN. It doesnt matter how we WIN, just as long as we WIN." I'm and sick & tired of hearing people use this nonsense of a line. Its just an excuse to ease our pain from us having to watch BONEHEAD basketball. I'd rather win the right and properous way. A lucky WIN just doesnt do it for me, sorry.
