I wonder how long it will take for people on here to hate Yao

He was great. But he could have been greater!

Talk to me in 5 years (the Ming Dynasty).

 

C'mon David, just admitt that you don't like Steve for whatever reason and be done with it. Because your points don't hold water.

You said:

I correct you and you reply with:

Put it this way. Francis is working towards becoming a balanced player.

A player who works toward anything directly contridicts the reason you gave for bashing him in the first place, because he is an underachiever who show's no sign of improving. So which is it?

Are you saying that Francis has not improved period? That he is the same player that he was he was a year ago, his rookie season, and when he was at Maryland?

His game has improved and it improved before he talked to Michael Jordon or Jerry West (which were both right before this season), it improved because the kid has a strong work ethic and actually wants to be a better player. He still makes mistakes, but all players do, even Yao.

Please expound on this, exactly what has Yao worked on as a youth that Francis has not? Are you talking about the fundamentals of the game? Please explain how you know Steve does not and has not worked on this? I could give you a few areas in which Yao is definitely not fundamentally sound, but I'm not here to tear down Yao, oh excuse me, give constructive criticism on Yao's game (as some of you Francis bashers like to put it).

You seem to have a problem with some of the more "athletically inclined" players, and the fact that they rely on or use those skills to the fullest. You don't seem to be a fan of the flash and the dunks (even though this game is entertainment). I'm sure if I asked you, you would say that BB IQ is more important than athletic ability, for folks like you I ask one question:

If BB IQ was more important than athletic ability, how come the NBA isn't full guys with only basketball smarts (like yourself) instead of the guys who can jump out the gym but are lacking in BB IQ?

 

You're right. Doesn't anyone remember the trade talks involving Hakeem and Stanly Roberts? Hakeem changed his game and started to get his teammates involved. "Uncerachiver" isn't the right word, but he wasn't part of the elite. There was still a lot of his game he had to improve on. Just because you put up stats doesn't mean you are automatically a great player or an overachiver.

And Kelvin Cato is not an overachiever. Come on, he's even admitted to being troubled by a bad attitude.

 

That's right. I don't like Francis game. Not yet. He has shown improvement
ONLY THIS YEAR. But it's due to Yao and Rudy's decision to go
to a "motion offense." Forced change due to lack of success and
from outside advice. Yao is making Francis'es game better.

You said that Francis improved before talking to West and Jordan.
I say, it wasn't that much. He thought, "Oh boy! If I can score 30ppg
then I'm doing good things!" Wrong!

Granted, last year he had that ear problem...

By the way, you are saying that I'm bashing Steve now by calling him
an "underachiever" in past tense. We'll see...

And in three years, if Steve starts to come into his own and help the
team...then you can yell "Ha ha ha Steve bashers!!!" all you want.

But, the changes that will allow Steve to achieve this level of success is
what we "Steve Bashers" have always wanted in the first place.

Why? Because it's not about that! ESPN hightlights is what it's all about. The kids
love it and that what the kid do! It's about "Me, me, me!"

Not, "How can I help the team better." It's about how can I score like Jordan
and get the shoe contracts. Now. Francis has said that he doesn't think
like this anymore...So, let's wait and see if it's true.

Again. Three more years (his 5th and 6th year in the league).

Sigh...Yao is 22. Yao has more fundamentals than Steve does at 24.
Enough said. Get busy Steve...school is in.

 

<blockquote><hr> "Uncerachiver" isn't the right word, but he wasn't part of the elite. <hr></blockquote>
utter hogwash...The history of hakeem by people who never saw him in the 80s astounds me.

<b>Playoff Winner</b>
Akeem was the major reason the Rockets crushed Magic Johnson 4-1 in the playoffs to make the Finals in Akeem's 2nd yr (second year, and he made 2nd Team All NBA). Againt the Lakers he averaged 34ppg and was the game's leader in rebounds each of the 4 wins. In all other 80s playoffs, he destroyed the competition while Sampson was underachieving.

<b>Akeem Olajuwon was 1st Team ALL NBA center for 3 successive years (87-89) in the 80s</b>

and the 4th yr he was 2nd to Robinson, yet that 4th yr Akeem beat Robinson in every major statistical category by leading the league in rebounding and blocks, and scored 24ppg. He got robbed in that vote.

i n c o n c i e v a b l e that Robinson got 1st Team when a three-time winner beat him in every statistical category, as well as led the league in 2 of them.

The 5th season in that string he was sent to the emergency room with a career threatening injury from a Bill Cartwright elbow crushing his eye socket in the 1990-91. That was ~56 games into the year and he was leading the league in rebounds and blocked shots for a 3rd and 4th straight year (but ending up not qualifying), and scoring 22ppg.

If a guy who was a *three time* 1st Team All-NBA in the 80s is not in the elite...then I don't know what your definition is. But, no way in hell can you call 3 successive 1st Team awards and that 4th one that they gave as a gift to Robinson is anything close to underachieving.

 

Well, by "elite" I mean being mentioned in the same sentence as Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, and others. Maybe I should use different word.

But it's clear that he dramatically improved his game around 1992-1993. He was already a great player, but he became one of the best ever. He became a guy who could win championships and lead his team deep into the playoffs.

Francis is already a very good, maybe great, basketball player, but he is nowhere near being considered one of the elites like Bird, Hakeem or those other guys.

 

My problem with Steve is that he often tries to do too much. Some people see this as selfishness; that he is only interested in his personal stats, rather than the team. Other people say it is a sign of immaturity or that he didn't have faith (due perhaps to the injury plagued previous season) in his teammates abilities.

I suspect that it's all of the above. He's a young, gifted player - of course, he wants to show off - to be in the highlight reels with all the other NBA studs. That said, I think that he may be ready to take the next step. The addition of Yao Ming to the team may be the element that causes everything to gel. He is a skilled player that fills our (previously) biggest hole. There is (after LA, Dallas, and the Spurs) no doubt that he can produce when he gets the ball on a regular basis. His mere presence on the court takes a lot of pressure off the rest of the team - he demands the double team whenever he touches the ball and he is willing (some feel TOO willing, but that is probably a matter of being new and a little intimidated by being surrounded by the best players in the world) to pass to the open man.

Give credit too, to Yao Mings attitude and intelligence. He could have come in with the attitude of "Here I am, the best player from of population of 1.3 billion, here to take over the team and save it from mediocracy. Take five, Steve, I'm in charge now!" Instead, he has shown maturity, respect for the other players and, most importantly, for the team as a whole.

The game has to go through Yao Ming, but the challenge for Steve (and Yao Ming also, but Steve IS the point guard), is to not let the Rockets game go from "Steve and Cuttino dribble like madmen and take every shot, open or triple-teamed" to "pass it to Yao Ming and watch the show". Yao Ming's passing ability opens up the game and increases the chances that the shot will be taken by the man who has the best chance of making it. Steve's challenge is to get everyone on the team involved to the best of his abilities and to play to each players strengths.

This is his greatest challenge and his greatest opportunity. How he responds to it will determine how he is remembered as a player, not how high he can jump or how theatrically he can dunk.

 

Dave were you not here at the beginning of the season when Francis was putting up big numbers with Yao playing very few minutes (around 10-15 a game at first). How did Yao help Francis's game then. Were you around when he was named to the allstar team before Yao came to the team (still putting up allstar numbers by the way). To say that his improvement is attributed to Yao is crazy. Steve and this team are better with Yao on it, no doubt, but you put Steve on any other team and he is still an allstar point gaurd. Period.

Wrong again, go back and read your original post, you said he is an underachiever and that you continue to bash him because he shows no signs of improvement. You were wrong about him being an underachiever and continue to contradict yourself.

This is the reason you gave for why you bash Steve or any player:

Then you turn around and say:

Though your reason for Francis's improvement is clearly wrong, you still feel that he has improved by your own admission, so if he is improving then why bash? C'mon give me another excuse.

 

This is a true statement. Media and advertisers are part of the reason that BBall culture has veered from the fundamentals. But it is not the answer to my question. The answer to the question is you see more of the latter type of player because you can not teach Height (Yao) or athelitic ability (Steve), but you can teach fundamentals.

As far as Yao being more fundamental sound than Steve, i ask again (since you were not specific when I asked for "exactly" before) exactly where and how do you know that Steve does not work on these things?

 

I like the way that you measure stats as the end-all-be-all of a players
value.

What I talk about are the intangible of the game. What you talk about
are his numbers.

How do you measure a forced shot vs a missed open man?
How do you measure defensive pressure on a player that negates
them to setup their offense for a good shot?
How do you measure the difference between a turn-over because of
a pass, versus a turnover that was unforced?

Now, let me repeat the term underachiever. Steve has been this way
in the past 3 years. If he improves this year, then that's good. If he
stagnates then he will be an underachiever. Period. Even if he scores 30,
40, or 50 points a game. I don't care.

You would say that if he improves on his scoring, then he's not
an underachiever. I say he will still be one if that's all you use a as
a measure.

If he sacrifices his points for the winning pass to a teammate then I'd
say that he's learning how to utilize his athletic ability to make scoring/passing
options easier.

Next, you asked how do I know that Francis is not working on those fundamentals?
Well, he said he was. So, we wait. Let him show the fans and see if it pays off. Then, we'll
know if he really is working on those skills (and I'm not talking about shooting).

So, he IS an underachiever until he can prove himself otherwise.

Sorry...that's the way it is. Just because he says he is working on those skills, does't mean anything. They are empty words until you PROVE IT ON THE COURT!

Yes, but Yao has two assets: Height and Fundamentals (and some athletic ability).

Steve has only one asset: Athletic Ability

Yes. You can teach fundamentals. But Steve has to learn the fundamentals
later in his career rather than when he was younger. That's always a struggle.
You should learn the fundamentals first, then move on to the advanced skills.
Francis just jumped to the advanced skills and forgot the rest. Now, school is in
session. Sigh...

I know you think that I'm going hard on Francis. But contrary to others
on this board. I still believe that Francis is, and should be the leader of this team.
Not Yao. But because Yao has done great in the last few days they want him
to become the leader. NO. Francis should be. But he has to learn the game,
before he can lead!

 

The fact is that Steve Frances is probably the list popular All-Star in the league among his own team's fans. Maybe he needs to hire a PR firm. Frankly, he has struggled with his image since the night he was drafted by the Grizzles and he came across as a whiney, ungrateful, liitle rich kid. To bash Steve or not to bash Steve is the subject of most threads on this board. Virtually everyone agrees that he has incredible physical skills. Everyone who has seen him play knows he hustles, he works hard, practices hard, etc. BUT, not everyone agrees that his game is fundamentally sound, or that he is unselfish, or whether he cares more for his own glory or the teams success and so on. And you know what, despite the endless bashing and the endless complaining about negativity, you really have to look to Frances himself as the reason for the controversy. Like I said, maybe he needs a PR campaign.

 

I see DavidS, it's just as I aluded to earlier, you don't like Francis for some "intangible" reason and the intangibles arguement is just your next excuse for you wrongly calling Francis an underachiever and not being able to back it up with facts.

When did I mention stats in relation to showing that Steve has improved? I only mentioned his numbers when you tried to give that ridiculous line of reasoning that Steve has improved only because of Yao. I've stated several times that I don't measure a players value by stats, don't like 'em myself because they don't give the full value of a players worth. Steve just happens to show worth through stats and intangibles. Did I every say that scoring was the only way he has improved. You know I didn't, you said yourself:

Does that sound like a player that just scores. Admit it Dave you were wrong for calling Francis an underachiever. Why don't I simplify it for you. Here is the definition of underachieve:

To perform worse or achieve less success than expected.

Now are you going to tell me that Steve Francis has not met and exceeded the expectations that Rudy, CD, Les, the Rockets Organization, and all the folks that really matter and know basketball? If so, why was he an allstar, why has Rudy not benched him, maybe you should go read the latest Sporting News article and come back and talk to me about underachieving. Here it's posted in this thread:

HIGH FLYER

 

Oh, please! Saying that I have "lack of facts" is just like saying
that intangibles are meaningless. You bring up stats, his All-Star
apperance, and say that he's working hard. Well, that nice. I say he needs
to show me that he's a team player. O-dawg. Stop yapping about it.
Have your boy prove it!

By the way, is why I said that he appears to understand this and is working to
be a balance player. Not a balanced scorer. Not a balanced shooter. Not
a balanced dunker. A balanced "basketball player." So, this coming year
will be the litmus test.

The new "offense" is suppsed to offer a shared way of scoring.
Teamwork, vice ISOs. See, for some reason you don't get the "make his
team better." Yao has done this for Francis. Francis is trying to learn
how to make his teammates better. Francis throwing up a alley-oop
to just Yao is not making you team better. That's just that Yao is so
tall/skilled already.

So, let's say that Yao was not on the team. Then Francis would have to prove
his work ethic by himself. Which means better decisions, more passing and
less turnovers. We haven't played enough games.

You just regergited what I just said...

Again...you repete what I just said. Well, you agree then...thanks.

I hate his game as it is now. He's an underachiever until he can prove otherwise.
That's fine that you think that he's the best thing since slice bread.
Watching Francis is like waiting for a trainweck. He's always trying to force
the issue.

That's Francis. Let's see if he improves for the benifit of the team, not his dunks.

No, he has not exceeded expectation. He's behind the curve. Rudy and CD
will probably tell the media nice things. But behind closed doors they
were probably frustrated.

Allstar! Yeah, he's popular because of his speed and dunks. Thanks ESPN!

Benched him? Because he's the best behind Yao. And Rudy is probably pulling
his hair out trying to give the kid more time. Yao will erase a lot of the errors
that Francis makes for this coming year. Again, Yao makes Francis better.

I'm waiting for Francis to make the TEAM better....tick, tock...

 

The article in the other thread is pretty long so I'll give you some of the highlights.

You said:

and

NBA Analyst says:

Guess I'm not the only one that feels he has gotten better and it started before this season.
You said:

NBA Analyst says:

Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, but we agree that Francis knows what he needs to do right? It's just a matter of him doing it on the court. Let's read on.
You said:

Real Game situation sited by NBA Analyst:

Wasn't one of the "intangibles" you mentioned forced shot over missed open man? Sound like he is using his athletic ability to make scoring/passing options easier to me. How do your shoe strings taste, cause you really put your foot in your mouth on that one.
Finally you said:

Article quotes:

NBA Analyst goes on to state:

So Steve says he's looking to pass more and taking shots that are in the flow and Rudy backs up what Francis stated for those of you who don't see it on the court (Rudy also lets you know who truly is the best player on this team, for Yao Lovers\Steve Haters).

Guess this pretty much sums it up. Hey you're entitled to your opinion, but the facts just don't support your opinion.

 

ok how about everyone just go here and have a nice warm cup of....

http://www.tmzero.netfirms.com/multimedia/pictures/stfu.jpg

 

Guess what? There were many articles like that from his 1st and 2nd
seasons.

And here locally the commentators always say things like he's fast
and has lightning quick reflexes.

They say he can dunk like no other guard.

They say that he can rebound like no other guard.

This is a well and good. But local commentaries don't watch every
single game that the Rocket play. Plus add the fact that they have
tons of other game to watch from their own team.

Local sports casters would have Francis highlights. All this shows
his strengths.

Again, all well and good. I take all those comments with a grain of
salt.

These commentators don't have to sit through all the games. They
don't have to live with him all the time, game after game, like
Houston Rocket fans do.

Now, I know what he has said to the media. And that is why I said
that he seems to be understanding what it takes to be a balanced
player.

We'll see. I mean, what good does all this do if he doesn't prove it on
the court. PROVE IT! With consistancy!

You said that he's not an "underachiever" and I say he is until
he can show that he's the leader of this team and make them better.

I put the fire under his butt, and every game is a test for Francis.
There's no room for mediocrity. All flash, and no substance wont cut it.

Else, we just get kicked out of the playoffs, year after year.

 

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular but there's a difference between a FAN and a CHEERLEADER. Fans have the right to criticize players, it's what makes a fan, well.....a fan! Cheerleaders never criticize players because they usually don't know enough about the game to do so.

"Why don't you just make ten louder?......Ours go to eleven!"

 

Dave, our debate will never go anywhere, because where I back up my opinions with statements from those who are paid to watch and analyze bball and the Coach of the team, you back up your opinion with more of your opinion.

You say Steve is an underachiever who hasn't improved. I say he has and sight other knowledgable resources who agree.

You say Steve is all athletic ability, flash, and dunks. I say he is all about winning and is willing to change his game to win. Article clearly shows his game has changed. Asst Coach J. Boylen says it too.

You say Steve talks a good game about making the right decisions, but doesn't show much substance on the court. I say he does, Rudy says he does. Oh and by the way, as far as Steve making this team better, how can the BEST player on the team (as the coach said)not make your team better. It's asinine to think otherwise. So this team would be better w/o Steve? He's not the best thing since sliced bread, but he is the best on the Rockets.

If Steve is all talk and no substance, then you and he have alot in common, because you haven't backed up your arguement with on fact, just your lame opinion. So let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

If Steve is the BEST player then that's not saying much for Yao.

Three years going, Francis at the helm. What was it? Second to
last in attendance?

Those fans have spoken (albeit fair-weather fans).

Why? They know. They see his sloppy play. Turn-overs.
Bad decisions.

Now, if Francis is able to lead the team to the playoffs and win.
Then, they will come. Again, shallow words, Rudy, Boylen and O-Dawg.
Prove it!

But I'm glad that Boylen and Rudy say that Francis is the best player
on the Rockets. $85 million dollar contract says so...Plus it wouldn't
look so good for a rookie to outplay the vet.

 

My goodness man... now Steve is responsible for fan attendance as well. It's not Steve, you said what it was Houston is largely a city of fair-weather fans and I don't care who you bring to this city, by the by, attendance hasn't been much better with the addition of Yao either (which really baffles me, since he is the most exciting thing in the NBA right now). The only thing that is going to fill the seats consistantly is for this team to win and win big. Can we atleast agree on that?