I went to church today

Then who was he praying to?

 

Whether you believe Jesus was the son of God or not, I'm not sure people really understand what kind of life he lead and what he preached.

He wasn't just a "peaceful preacher." Much of what he taught and preached flew right into the face of the established leadership of religion in the day.

Jesus wasn't a doe eyed, child like figure. He was a fiery and powerful speaker who swayed thousands with his teaching...teaching that would be considered blasphemy by the established religious leaders of the day.

He taught peace and love, but he also taught that He is God.

 

I grew up in a (evangelical Christian home). I went through Baptist, Evangelical, non-denominational, Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches. Went from youth group memberships to teaching Sunday school to palms raised at large conventions and Christian rock concerts and college bible studies. In the past 7 years or so, I've removed myself from organized Christianity more and more. In its place, I have found a more satisfying and personal connection with 'God' through learning more about other religions and finding that humans are, at the core, capable of doing good and capable of reconciling our mortality.

Broadly speaking, I have 5 concerns that I haven't found adequate answers to that are related to Christianity:

1. For the most part, religion starts from dogmas and works backward with new findings. Reason is only used to explain how concepts can fit pre-established beliefs. (e.g. 'Ok, so now the earth revolves around the sun... just as God deemed it so')

2. The source of Christian belief (especially among post-Reformation denominations) is a man-made piece of work that proclaims to be the Word of God. But to my knowledge, the compilation of the Bible was done with clear intent to solidify certain beliefs and to nullify supposed heresies among early Christian believers. More so, there are too many inconsistencies and subjectivity in the Bible for me to accept the Bible as a whole. The literal vs metaphorical vs literary debate has been a challenge.

3. The beliefs themselves. Example: The original sin redeemed by the death and resurrection of the Son of God -- followed by the very strict edict that if there is not a belief in these very exact points, then non-believers will be cast into eternal damnation. Doesn't square with "God = love" to me. There are others.

4. The adaptability or the evolution of the Christian religion. From historical terms, the Church (Catholic, Orthodox, and less organized but still effective Reformers) have done a great harm to humankind over the centuries. Moreover, doctrines and sermons have beeen conveniently appropriated to square with political and social conveniences in their respective times (e.g. Purgatory, relics, homosexuality, the righteousness of war, etc.)

5. Christians themselves. I know that to believe in God is to believe in His Word and His example. However, I can't help but be disheartened by my experiences with His followers, personally and also news from the public domain. I've met some great and wonderful Christians. I've also known my share of hypocrites, bigots, and large egos.

As a whole, however, I find Christians to be closed off from new beliefs that threatens their views. Quoting from the Bible is habit. ONLY quoting from the Bible, in some circles, is the only way to go. I find that to be grossly unfortunate and somewhat limited in scope. I would say the same for believers in other religions like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wiccan, etc. I would think that God wants us to believe in him with our utmost, and that means subjecting our beliefs in Him to the strongest of counter-arguments in the search for truth.

 

Whatever gets you through the night, is alright, is alright.

 

God the Father. Praying is just talking and listening.

 

"I and the Father are one"

So he is talking to himself.

 

1) I'm not sure what you mean here. Can you explain this more?

2) There are different stories told by different people from different angles. Can you list the inconsistancies? I may not be able to answer but because I have questions as well but I will try.

3) God does love us more than we can imagine. Sending His only Son to be born as a man and die on a cross. He did all the work. I'm not sure He could have made it more easier than just believe.

4 and 5) Satan's big sword are some of the churches, church leaders and Christians that history has produced. Please don't blame God for man's imperfections.

Because someone holds strong to their beliefs using what we believe to be a handbook from God, doesn't make us weak. I've been through the search and I do not know of a church where I might interpret something a little different, but I do believe that the Bible is correct and Jesus is more than a man. Grace is the one thing I strongly believe in and the other things are just coffee table conversation.

 

No. He is equal to the Father but different from the Father.

The trinity is as complex as enternity for man to wrap his brain around. There is God the Father (the one He is praying to), God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit (the helper inside born-again Christians). You can think of it like H20 (water). In it's "normal" state, it's liquid. Heat it up and it becomes gas. Freeze it and it becomes a solid. Same makeup, different forms.

 

Theological cleanup on Aisle 12. Theological cleanup on Aisle 12.

 

Interesting...that's how Muslims see Christ as well: a revered messenger of God.

 

Who knew JC wore glasses?!?

 

I had to respond to this to bring up another point.

Dada: I don't believe Jesus is the divine son of God.

ArtV: Sure he is. He says so right here in this book. Or rather, he is reported to have said so in this book written by an unknown author who never actually saw or heard the events he's reporting. But I'll take his word for it. Why don't you?


Sometimes you'll see the same non-logic used to defend the bible itself.

Non-believer: I don't believe in the inerrancy of the bible
Believer: No, it's perfect, and is the word of God. See right here, it says so in the bible.

 

Dakota,

Glad to hear that you went to church and had a good experience. I got back from a 72 hour retreat where I had no access to anything, including even a watch. It was something that I needed to do as I felt that my relationship with God lately hasn't been what it could have been. I am about to go to lunch but reading your post made me smile.

Just remember a couple of things and this is what I personally believe:

1) God wants a relationship with you and will always be waiting on you - it is up to you to seize that opportunity. But don't think you have to do it by a certain age. I have met many Christians who didn't find God until they were much older in life.

2) God gave man free will and as a result there are a lot of things in this world that will tempt you. I think it is easy for us to blame God for things that go wrong in our life when if we are really honest with ourselves, we let ourselves get in bad situations. Now, sometimes things happen to good people that make you wonder if God is really a loving God - things like this are the hardest for not only me but many people I know, Christians and non-Christians to deal with.

3) It is true that the Bible has some imperfections to it but that was because man, an imperfect creature, wrote it but with divine inspiration from God. Some people may argue with me on that and that is okay but the important thing to take from the Bible are the messages and stories it relates. Big deal if it mixes up a name historically with someone else (example being the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament). I think too many Christians get wrapped around the axle with the literal words in the Bible and thus miss the messages and stories that are there.

4) There are things in this world that you just have to accept on faith. This might be the single hardest thing for many people. But, I, personally have to leave things to God and let Him handle it. That thinking may cause some people to laugh and snicker at me but I don't care. That is what I personally believe and I guess that is why I have faith in the first place.

5) Finally, it is like a couple of other people have touched on - there are Christians out there that give Christianity a bad name whether it is being too judgmental, egotistical, self-righteous, etc. Just remember that you can only do the best, that DaDakota can do. Don't worry about others; if you ever get to the point where you completely accept God in your heart and want that relationship with Him, He'll lead you to a deeper plan that He has for you. Figuring out that plan is hard sometimes (and something I have struggled with a lot), but you just have to give it all to Him. However, only YOU know when you are ready for that step. Just know that if you ever get to that point, that you can't change other people. You can only show them the type of person you are - one that is filled with love for all people - Christian or not.

Once again, thanks for sharing this thread. I would love to help you more if you ever feel the need (and I know that goes for other Christians on the board like MadMax, ArtV, rhester, etc.).

 

Sounds like a wishful explanation for the contradictions.

 

The entire concept of the holy trinity was invented in the 900's.

 

Yeah, it has been interesting "watching" your progression as presented on this board for the past 6-7 years (ugh...that is ridiculous...time is killing me). I am sure it is the right path for you because you have always kind of been there in your heart and that has been pretty obvious. Unlike many I trust your sincerity of belief so even if I cannot fathom your mindset I can learn from you.

My quote was Kierkegaard, by the way. I forgot to give proper citation. Don't mess with the Melancholy Dane.

 

Speaking of sermons, here's Muhammad's last sermon. Found it very interesting.

 

I'm pretty sure the trinity existed looooong before the world began. But to those "inventors" in the 900s - good job.

 

Just trying to put the cookies on the lower shelf.