'Nique came back from Panathinaikos and posted 18ppg for the Spurs in the nba during the 1996-1997 season... The guy could still play some ball although he wasn't the human highlight film any more. Check your facts dude. Huge gap?? Where do European players in the nba come from?? Another fact: 9 out of 11 top nba centers come from overseas. The gap that was back in the 80s and early 90s has been greatly reduced. Europe has a top quality league called Euroleague and most of the Euro players that play in the nba have Euroleague experience. The difference between the levels of those two leagues comes from their budgets. A typical nba team has a $100 mil annual budget, while CSKA with the highest budget is somewhere around $18 mils. Only soccer teams can have very large budgets because of the publicity that soccer has overseas.
i can't believe this is the argument you came up with to point out the flaws in MY logic.... 1. yeah, rafer played more minutes when tmac went out. does the mere fact that he did so justify it? how about the fact that rafer has still averaged 37.5 minutes a game, even with tmac back? in the end, rafer is logging big minutes regardless of whether the stars are or are not available. 2. if the stars are out, isn't that the perfect opportunity to play the younger players, rather than wear out your underperforming starters? i can understand increasing the minutes of secondary stars when primary stars go out, but you are trying to justify increasing the minutes of RAFER ALSTON. what did i miss? what argument have you raised that i didn't originally address? how does my logic lead to these statements you're making? my logic is that rafer alston is not a player capable of playing well with minutes of 35+. most players play better on fresh legs. i dont see any flaw with that reasoning. are you seriously questioning that rafer wouldn't be more effective with less minutes? tmac is more capable of playing those minutes than rafer, but id also like to see him logging less than 40 minutes. unlike rafer, playing tmac more minutes DOES make sense because he helps this team in every way. there are times when rafer helps the team, but more often than not, he hurts the team by missing shots and fouling 3 pt shooters. with less minutes, im going to make a bold assertion here that rafer would be able to play with more focus and concentratin when he is on the court, leading to fewer of those stupid game-deciding fouls, and also keep his legs fresher for those wide open shots he continually misses. and what do you mean by 'in blow-outs they will log fewer minutes and not just by being pulled at the end'? expound on that, because im pretty sure the only reason players log less minutes in blowouts (which truthfully, hasn't been the case as much as it normally is because we actually play our starters to the final minute of the game in blowouts) is because they get pulled early when the lead is big enough. im not trying to be belligerent here, and i didnt think my original post was, but it honestly it seems like you're trying to assault my reasoning with faulty logic of your own.
the gap is big. Its not a gap that cannot be filled, but it does take time for the vast majority of euros...and yes more than half a season.
If European players are so superior, how come two American bench warmer/NBA castoffs like Mike Batiste and Tony Delk, are leading Panthaniakos to the top of the Euroleague? Why are they fighting it out with NBA reject Trajan Langdon for supremacy? Why is Pete Mickeal a superstar in Europe? Why do all the top teams in Europe start American players who can't even get on NBA rosters or flameout Europeans who couldn't make it in the NBA? Stop making judgments based on 1 or 2 exhibition games.
I wouldn't say that the gap is closed but it's definitely at the smallest level it has ever been and it's constantly closing. Don't forget that a plan that has been talked many times involves the 4-5 best Euroleague teams migrating to the NBA at some point. And really, one could argue that Toronto, and to a lesser extend San Antonio and Utah are almost Euroleague teams and I don't see any of them doing bad. I wouldn't put my money on a team made up from Garbajosa, Calderon, Bargnani, Nesterovic, Parker to win the Euroleague and yet they've won half their NBA games so Euro players aren't as useless as you think. In the past, the best a Euro player could achieve in the NBA would be to be considered a useful player; now they can easily be their team's superstars. And that has hurt Spanoulis because most people expected a superstar at the level of Ginobili when he's just a very useful player. I can't understand how a player like Beno Udrih who isn't anything special (I'd certainly wouldn't want him on my team) can have 15 mins of playing time in a top NBA team and Span can't. Oh, Delk isn't "leading" us anywhere, I'd gladly trade him with Span right now by the rationale that "NBA players are kings in Europe", Delk who averaged 10 points in a 10 year career in the NBA (not too bad), should have been averaging around 20 points in Europe, right? But he doesn't. As for Batiste, he has no relation at all right now with the Batiste that came to Europe 4 years ago. That Batiste was just a mediocre small forward. Now, after 4 years of hard work, Batiste is one of the best power forwards in Europe, because while working with the right coach and with the right team he learned that defence and team-work is much more important to basketball than just jumping high or making an impressive dunk.
Try to keep up with the logic. You claimed we historically do better when Rafer logs less minutes; you claimed cause-effect. I pointed out that you CANNOT DRAW THAT CONCLUSION FROM THE DATA, illustrating the point beautifully using TMac and his minutes. Don't put words in my mouth. I did not claim that Rafer playing 35+ is good for us (although I recall someone posting that his 3-pt % in 4th qtrs is quite high...I still did not make that argument). Just because your claim is based on faulty logic does not imply that I'm saying Rafer needs to play 40. The these fictitious claims get created, then repeated until everyone thinks they're fact. What I did was point out that your claim was unsubstantiated. I clearly showed why you cannot draw the conclusion that we do better as a team when Rafer plays less than 35 mins. Right or wrong you didn't prove your point. So let's look at some of his stats, do his legs tire, does he lose his shots w/ more minutes? ______________Pct_____3-Pt Pct________Efficiency 20 - 30 min______.294_____.222______________6.3 30 - 40 min_______.354_____.349_____________12.3 40 + min_________.389_____.400_____________15.6 http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketbal...-rockets/players/rafer-alston/stats/07/10/135 Sure as h*ll doesn't looks like his shooting or efficiency drop off ... h*ll, llok at those numbers .... maybe I should be arguing he needs 40+ mins. I've already shown how there's no way to draw a conclusion from tying minutes played w/ Win/Loss ratio since other factors clearly pollute the equation. So from where do you draw you conclusion? An assumption that his legs aren't fresh? Doesn't look like that's sunstantiated. So what is it?
FYI - Iverson was referencing the fact that the reporters were actually tlaking about practice instead of game performance at a post-game report - not that practice wasn't important.
Vspan is really great..at whining like a little baby boy. I'm getting sick of it. Even Bonzi shows more maturity then this. poor little multimillionaire. Go build a hospital. you were T mac in Greece? and?........................ now you're vspan in America!
Based on that stat sheet, he should play 40+ minutes in road games in November and then he shouldn't play after that. Because his December and January numbers have gone down.
those are compelling stats, which i haven't seen before and which you didn't present before. and i never put words in your mouth, did i? i simply reasserted my belief that this team is better off with rafer logging under 35 minutes. you saying that i did, however, would be an example of you putting words in my mouth. now these stats indicate that we're winning more games when rafer plays 40+ minutes. they are completely bizarre, especially his shooting percentages improving with 40+ minutes. though i might venture that given how poorly he shoots throughout the game, it makes sense that maybe it just takes him that long to finally warm up. either way, you're right that rafer plays better with 40+ minutes, which i never would have guessed. like you, however, i dont believe in tying individual stats to our win/loss column. when i said i thought the team was better off with rafer logging under 35 minutes, it wasn't a statistical assertion, it was a statement based on the flow of the game and the ability of rafer to maintain his focus for extended minutes. the stats you've listed indicate that i'm wrong. that's fine with me. im still unconvinced that this team wouldn't benefit from a playmaker like vspan off the bench, rather than relying on rafer and lucas 24/7, regardless of their struggles.
You can not honestly expect Spanoulis to be an impact player right away without some development. He is still *very* raw. I don't get how he can say "I was McGrady back at home." Sorry V-Span but these are the best players in the world. He needs to look at Ginobili and see why he earns his minutes. Outside *and* inside threat. Not a one trick pony there. Regardless of how great Manu may be, his style is entirely dependent on where Tim Duncan is on the court. V-Span wont play if hes an erratic and inconsisten shooter unless he's named Rafer.
Again I say to you why can't we win the WC or the Olympics and why do we get beat by Spain, Argentina, Greece, and I forget who else. The NBA is still a head of the rest of the world, but they are right on our butts. That's why you saw NBA teams losing this past year in exhibition games played in Europe and other parts of the world. One on one America still has an edge with guys like Mac and Kobe, but how much of an edge over guys like Nash, Yao, and Peja? Europe definitely plays better team ball than us at this point and it won't be long before they match up with us one on one.
Mike Batiste has become a much better player in the 4 years he's played in europe. He is averaging twice as many points and twice as many rebounds as he did in his first year at PAO and his 2pt% went from 47 to 70.7 . The current Mike Batiste would not be a bench warmer in the NBA. And as far as tony Delk is concerned, id happily trade him with spanoulis since he is not leading us anywhere and hasnt really adapted to the euro game at all yet. His first decent game was today which coincidentally Panathinaikos lost And although you can say they are an important part of the team theyre hardly the stars of the team.
Vspan is lucky in the sence that... Vspan in this and the following season of his 2 yr guaranteed contract (3rd year not guaranteed ) will make 3.7 million Now if you look at the 2004 rookie salary scale the #29 pick will make 4.32 million by 2008 after playing 4 yrs in the NBA as compared to the 2 that Vspan will next season . 2004 # 29 pick (all 1st rounders get 20 % more than salary scale figure first year--- 696,300 x 1.2= 835,560 2nd year---748,500 x 1.2= 898,200 3rd year---800,700 x 1.2= 960,840 4th year --960,840 x 1.805 = 1,734,316 Total of 4.43 million guaranteed money playing 4 years (2004-2008 ) . compare that to Vspan 3.7 million for 2 years (2006-2008) . He got a very good deal for a # 50 pick and normally when a 2ndround pick gets this good a contract shows the management really likes him and will really give him a chance. JVG has said that he has not given up on him yet and has not closed his doors on the possibility of working him in the rotation again. And there is chance JVG is gone away by the end of the season too. He should not give up now . Just work harder at the very least give himself and the rockets a year.
I'm surprised Delk is not in the NBA. I think he is a significantly better point guard than Rafer amongst others.
