They actually have a "religious police" in some parts of the country that forces women to change their clothing (and gang rapes them, in some instances). Does the KKK have police power in any parts of the United States? Plus, the point bobrek made is very valid, your post is ridiculous, just because you didn't see or encounter any such things in your limited time there doesn't mean it isn't there.
No, because the title of this thread isn't "I was just in a Secular Country and..." What is ironic is rocketsjudoka using Indonesia as an example of moderation when a Christian was stabbed in Indonesia just 24 hours(?) before he started this thread. Indonesia is also home to Jemaah Islamiyah, the al-qaeda linked group responsible for multiple terror attacks on Jakarta and Bali. The group has also plotted (but so far failed) attacks on Singapore. Although officially a Muslim country, Malaysia is probably more moderate in comparison.
Sorry I have to correct this. Only part of this post is even part of the law, but more importantly none of what's in the post is ever really enforced. Maybe before, maybe in the future for some unexpected reason. As it stands, there are non-Muslim places of worship all over the place. There are a few churches in Dubai and Christians congregate in their own neighbourhoods or compounds all the time for prayers, christmas. I have personally received leaflets from the churches. Muslims and non-Muslims are off for Christmas and Eid. All the kids celebrate both holidays, except for a few odd balls. Muslim women do marry non-Muslim men. This is only an issue in the rare circumstance of an Emarati woman and a non-Emarati man where the woman's father does not consent. It is an issue for sure, but nothing ground breaking and nothing that would affect you. In fact, the woman can go ahead and get married if she agrees that her children will not receive Emarati citizenship - not a terrible bandaid-solution for the time being. Also, the media has openly spoken out about this and the government is discussing it internally. This problem is not related to Islamic Sharia, it's an issue with arab tribalist mentality. As you all know, Sharia prohibits alcohol but Dubai does not - every alcohol distributor in the country is at least part Emarati-owned. There are Emarati hotels which sell alcohol. There are Emaratis who drink alcohol. What I'm getting at is Dubai does not really follow Sharia law, although you can say it's loosely based on Sharia law. There is absolutely nothing prohibiting a Muslim man from marrying a non-Muslim woman. My brother's wife is American (she is from Kentucky) and it does not say anywhere on her passport or their marriage documents that she is a Christian. They have a son and he holds both passports. The marriage situation is problematic, but 95% of what's written above is either outdated or not enforced. The other 5% is being discussed publicly and it actually seems like they will find a solution soon. With Dubai, specifically, there is no more intolerance than there would be in any other country in the world. The problems that Dubai faces are more bureaucratic/socio-political than anything else. If there was a significant amount of intolerance, the Daily Mirror in the UK would not have to blow up every miniature story it could get its hands on.
Back on topic.. Indonesia was great, is still decent, but here's your problem.. Saudi invests $1.3B in Indonesia I'm personally very worried about 100 million Indonesians suddenly eating out of the hand of the Saudi government.
This may be a naive question, but what exactly is Saudi's motivation for investing billions of dollars in countries all around the world? Isn't it true that the Saudi royal family isn't even very religious?
I think they're reading the writing on the wall that eventually the oil may not be as relevant in the world as it is right now. If you have any idea how poverty stricken those same aristocrats were before the discovery of oil, then you can see their motivation in not wanting to go back to that. Frankly, it may already be too late, for many, many years they didn't develop any industries, just floating along on the petrol dollars, allowing their kids to be spoiled and poorly educated. It may or may not be possible to turn it around now before the oil (a)runs out and/or (b)is no longer necessary.
Also, the Saudi royal family has some religious factions and some other factions which are not. The people with the most power are not. However, in spite of not being religious, they have decades of experience using fake religiousness to earn friends/respect/followers in the world, and are very savvy about using their geographic location to their advantage in that respect. They also have interests in spreading Arabism and establishing that in the world. They are very nationalistic/racist.
I'm not denying that bad stuff doesn't happen but at the same time this shows that the dire picture that you are almost always paint of Muslims and Islam isn't the case. That for the most part they are peaceful and tolerant. Bobrek, although he was trying to counter my point, actually helps to make my point that it is wrong to generalize a people, place or culture based on just the worst things you hear about it.
Yes that is ironic but at the same time I'm sure if someone made a thread about the US being a safe place you could find within 24 hours news about someone being murdered in the US. While there is certainly religious violence in Indonesia, FYI Christians have also attacked Muslim Indonesians also (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/26/terror/main3099123.shtml), I will stand by my first hand experience that Indonesians including Indonesian Muslims are for the most part very peaceful. Following the argument that is frequently made here that Islam is inherently violent and intolerant the opposite would be true but its not. I have cited Malaysia frequently as an example of a moderate Islamic state. I would though also point out that Malaysia is a far more stable and better run country both politically and economically. I personally suspect that much of the violence, including religious, in Indonesia is also tied to corruption and economic problems.
Also while this didn't happen on my most recent trip I was proselytized to in Indonesia. By an Indonesia Christian who I met on a bus in Yogojakarta. She told me I would live forever if I believed in Christ.
I suspect there is some truth to your last sentence, but when I say Malaysia is more moderate I mean that relatively of course. Just earlier this year Muslims torched a church (not a bible) in KL. I've never been to Yogojakarta, but my relatives from Indonesia tell me it is one of the safer (and more boring places) in Indonesia. Even Jakarta is more dangerous. The point is, Indonesia is a freaking huge country, and Batam is hardly representative of Indonesia. Not sure if you are aware, but Batam is pretty much an experiment where the Indonesian government let the Singapore government help with the planning of the place, and there are lots of Singapore companies and workers located there. It's not your typical Indonesian island.
Which is why many people don't consider certain parts of the US safe When I think of safe countries, Japan comes to mind, not the US. In the same way, when I think of a religiously moderate country, I don't think of Indonesia.
Well, you don't like the US example, then here you go: http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/08/26/americans-protest-chruch-at-hiroshima/ http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy...-immigrants-and-liberal-media-for-their-woes/ lol By the way, Japan is pretty intolerant to people that want to practice their religion publicly. Much more so than the US. Native Japanese Muslims are looked down upon and ostracized by their families and friends.
usually, i never have the stomach to brave this side of the BBS but i thought id give some opinions/experiences to share, not to argue whichever side, but just for consideration. both malaysia and indonesia are not one consistent entity where everyone shares the same mentality. there are parts in malaysia that may seem extremely conservative, with a few ppl with extremely narrow viewpoints. same as other countries in the world. there are parts in indonesia where malaysians would consider extremely liberal, and not just bali. both countries suffer from some level of corruption, nepotism, bigotry. regarding the burning of a church in malaysia earlier this year, most ppl believe it happened not due to religious issues but political. the state selangor, which is one of the more economically prosperous states, was wrestled away in the last general election from the govt party for the first time ever. in malaysia, the govt party controls more of the media as well as the police than the state govt, so more publicity is given to the govt party. these hate crimes, church and mosque vandalism, as well as one incident where a hindu temple's relocation was protested against (in which a cow head was used to mock the hindu god) were thought of as sabotage by paid members of the previous state party (which is the same party as the govt right now). all to create instability and mistrust in the new state govt's ability to govern. ive been in a few countries in the gulf coast countries, including saudi arabia for 2 years and recently in iran for about 2 weeks. in about 3.5 years total, ive actually never met these so called religious police who beat, shoot or rape ppl. im sure there may be a few gangs of them in these countries, but its probably extremely extremely rare and not at all the normal occurrence that makes these countries deserve to have these gangs of thugs be the end all image to paint these countries.
Are you equating people protesting in Japan with church burning in Malaysia and stabbing/bombing in Indonesia? In your first article it wasn't even Japanese, but Americans doing the protesting. LOL. Tell me, where would you feel safer, walking around at 2am in Hiroshima or Jakarta? How about Osaka or Johor? By the way, I never claimed Japan was tolerant. I have never heard of native Japanese Muslims being ostracized by their families and friends, but I'll take your word for it. (A link would be nice though.) Due to my line of work I have lived in Japan and deal with many Japanese people. All of them say they are Shinto/Buddhist, but for many, that usually involves going to the temple on new year's once a year. Only one of them is a strict Buddhist. Japan just isn't a very religious country. And as you'll note, the protesters in your articles aren't protesting because they are religious. The first is Americans... being busy bodies? The 2nd is green tea baggers blaming immigrants.
I only followed the story for the first week or 2, and I didn't see this angle. That would be incredibly bold of UMNO if true
If I was in a suit and tie, Hiroshima and Osaka. If I was in a long beard, turban, and shalwar-kameez, Jakarta and Johor.
^what I meant by bold, is if it ever was proved that UMNO was actually responsible for the attacks, I'd imagine even Muslims would lose faith in UMNO. Seems like a crazy risk for such a big party to take.
