I think this would be a great trade for both Toronto and Rox

I agree ... this is a bad trade for both teams. So, it won't happen. It was late at night, and I threw out some friendly banter to brainstorm something that might work for us, since the first suggestion didn't meet the Rocket's needs.

I mean, 2 starters for a team who was just ranked #14 in the Power Rankings after losing 4 out of 5 games, for 3 players who are not starting for a team ranked #21 in the Power Rankings, including 2 backup small forwards, when we already have 3 ... wow ... what homerism. (sarcasm)

We may be frustrated, but not stupid. You come onto our Rocket Fans BBS, where we are frustrated with our players about this and that, and assume we will want to take someone else's leftovers, and if we're not happy about that, we're homers?

Good grief!

If Alvin Williams was SO great, why did Toronto just trade their starting center and fan-favorite PF to get Rose to replace him? The only reason he's now available, is because he's not cutting it, so they got someone else. Now you expect us to be excited about giving Toronto two of our starters for someone they don't want, and another couple players we don't need?

Insult our players all you want, or call us homers, but it doesn't make your case.

I admit that Williams, Cato, Cat, and the other role players discussed each have their own value and place. A trade only works if both teams win in the deal.

 

gee raptor fans are so full of themselves aren't they?

On defence, Alvin Williams is superior to Cat Mobley, far superior actually. That difference certainly isn't made up by Cato's defence, who's atrocious at man to man D actually.

Mobes plays decent d. I'd rank Alvin Williams better than mobes on d, but he is hardly a lock down "clamps" d player. Cato's d is better than you give him credit for, but he isn't meant to d up pfs who have an outside game like he's being forced to.



On the other hand, granted he's in a slump right now, we all saw what Alvin Williams can do when given the minutes.

get injured, play d, hit a few jumpshots, dribble the ball up the court, and take up a good chunk of cap room. no thanks. people on this board love to overrate the hell out of this mediocre player because he's played pg when he's really just an overpaid short sg who played pg.

Throw in MoPete, who's a younger and less talented Cat, yet one who knows:

1. Not to take too many bad shots
2. How to run a fastbreak
3. Knows his role
3. Last but not least, scores more than Cato

MoPete is a p***y who wont drive it to the hole. He can run, but he doesn't help our transition game cuz he's not capable of running the fast break. He knows his role cuz hes a scrub. And he wont be scoring more than Cato while coming off the bench behind JJ and Pike, both players better than him.

I know the EC desperately needs big men, but if this guy shoots 5.9 PPG on 34% shooting, while getting paid like a star and traded for Alvin Williams (who at least can semi justify his contract), his name better be Ben Wallace. Simply put, Kelvin Cato just ain't cuttin' it. In fact, Toronto just trade one of their fan favs (JYD) who averages BETTER number than Cato, got a smaller contract, actually defends well and plays like it's his last game, just to get rid of a bad contract, what makes you think they'd take one back?

cuz he's a freaking center and they don't have one on the roster. They have plenty of people to plug in at pf. JYD may have been a "fan fav", but he wasn't a "team fav" obviously.

For the Rockets, you start a backcourt of Pike, JJ and Steve, then slide Steve to the 2 and have Williams off the bench. Voila, PG prob solved, not to mention Moochie never need to see PT again.

that solves no pg problem. It creates a depth problem with our big men with a whopping rotation of Yao and Mo. Oooh, but we have Alvin williams, SF, JJ, Pike, Adrian Griff, Lamond Murray and MoPete to pick up the slack, all swingmen none of which are true pgs. Yeah, real foresight there, esp when we have no draft pick next year, would probly not spend the exception cuz of our cheapass owner, and be locked into just as bad of contracts, except all of them as sfs/sgs, so we'd never be able to land a decent big man to spell Yao and Mo other than cba scrubs.

get real.

 

Not only that, but they put his ass on the bench and had Milt Palacio starting instead.

Yeah, they consider him a serous commodity.....

 

Nobody here is arguing Houston has more talent than Toronto, which is why Toronto is the one pulling the trigger on trades, not Houston so far. But if you think teams are just lining up to get robbed by the Rockets, better think again. You make it sound like ESPN's player ranking has any bearing on trades. Well if you care so much, how about this. Toronto's schedule thus far:

29 Wed New Jersey
31 Fri Washington W 82-79
1 Sat @ Minnesota
6 Thu Dallas
7 Fri @ Washington
9 Sun Denver
11 Tue @ Portland
12 Wed @ L.A. Lakers
14 Fri @ Sacramento
16 Sun Houston
19 Wed Philadelphia
22 Sat @ New Jersey
23 Sun Milwaukee
26 Wed @ Atlanta
28 Fri @ Orlando
29 Sat @ Miami

Houston's schedule:

30 Thu Denver
1 Sat Memphis
3 Mon @ Chicago
4 Tue @ New Jersey
8 Sat Orlando
11 Tue Miami
13 Thu @ Dallas
14 Fri Phoenix
16 Sun @ Toronto
17 Mon @ Philadelphia
19 Wed Golden State
21 Fri @ Portland
24 Mon @ L.A. Clippers
26 Wed @ Utah
28 Fri @ Sacramento
29 Sat @ Seattle

Know what the funny thing is, looks like the Raptors had a far tougher schedule, so sadly the EC is weaker than the WC argument everybody likes to throw around here doesn't apply. And if you think Houston is losing cuz they had a tough road schedule, the Rockets played 9 at home at 7 on the road. Toronto played 8 at home and 8 on the road. All the translated into a 1 game better record for Houston (which falls apart against any semblance of semi competition), while having a far better team, which still translating into a 10 place ranking difference on ESPN. So if I was CD, I'd be asking myself what the F*CK is wrong with this F*CKIN' team.

Oh and btw, they traded JYD away to get rid of AD, because they need to do is rebuild. The last thing they need to do is take on another bad contract AND get a player who won't play team offence.

 

Of course Cat is not a p***y, he's so brave he dribbles into quadruple teams and jacks up a wild shot. Or he throws up a trey with like freakin' 18 seconds on the shot clock. MoPete is a scrub, that's why I said he knows his ROLE, cuz he's a ROLE player. The problem with Cat is that he's a scrub and is too dumb to figure it out.

You obviously haven't heard the term rebuilding. That's what Toronto's doing right now. Chicago won't do an AD for JRose trade, so they had to sweeten the deal and make the cap situation work, hence they traded JYD. The other reason is it gives Bosh more PT, who they hope is part of their future. If they need a scrub C/PF they can just use Donyell Marshall. He might not be as good a rebounder but he's a better scorer, which is what Toronto needs right now.

And do you think a rotation of Yao Mo and Cato is much better than just Yao and Mo? In case you haven't noticed Cato's defenders aren't even pretending to respect him and doubles Yao. This trade might take away one of the Rockets' better role players it also solves the PG prob, cuz ANY FRIGGIN' LIVIN' PLAYER IS BETTER THAN MOOCHIE. Then you pull another trade to get a 4. You solve the probs one at a time... unless of course you were hoping to trade for a secret type of new player who can play both the 4 and 1.

 

I don't think anybody mistakes Milt Palacio as a good player, but our very own Stevie the Franchaise Francis averages a whooping 0.3 assists more per game than Milty in 11 more minutes. So maybe if Steve played more like Milt and less like Steve, Houston would actually be a better team.

PS. get your facts straight, Palacio started 2 games, AW started the other 14.

 

I don't know why this trade is getting only one start. At least the trade proposed in the first place is a FAIR trade. Unlike most trades, which keep trying to rip the other team off. The one I'm quoting isn't so bad... but why would the Pacers part with one of their building blocks in Harrington.

Alvin Willians and Lamond Murray are good shooters. Mo Pete is a slasher. I mean this trade wouldn't make the Rockets much better, but it wouldn't make us worse either.

 

Mobes might have trouble with his decision making which may lead him out of town eventually, but he has talent, ulike Mopete. MoPete = Shandn Andersn.

You obviously haven't heard the term rebuilding. That's what Toronto's doing right now. Chicago won't do an AD for JRose trade, so they had to sweeten the deal and make the cap situation work, hence they traded JYD. The other reason is it gives Bosh more PT, who they hope is part of their future. If they need a scrub C/PF they can just use Donyell Marshall. He might not be as good a rebounder but he's a better scorer, which is what Toronto needs right now.

Raptors aren't rebuilding, they're trying to get rid of the mistake contracts they handed out. Adding in JYD is not a "sweetner", esp when Chicago is already loaded with big men. Chicago is going to be stuck paying JYD's fat contract while he wastes away on the bench. Donyell is NOT a center, not even in the east. He's a tweener sf/pf. Toronto is more of a centerless team than they ever have been. Ask Miami how well small ball works.

And do you think a rotation of Yao Mo and Cato is much better than just Yao and Mo? In case you haven't noticed Cato's defenders aren't even pretending to respect him and doubles Yao. This trade might take away one of the Rockets' better role players it also solves the PG prob, cuz ANY FRIGGIN' LIVIN' PLAYER IS BETTER THAN MOOCHIE. Then you pull another trade to get a 4. You solve the probs one at a time... unless of course you were hoping to trade for a secret type of new player who can play both the 4 and 1.

yes, a rotation of Yao/Mo/Cato is better than Yao/Mo/(Meech, Ford, whatever crap). Cato isn't there for offense, other than rebounding and alley oops, or haven't you noticed that his entire career here? This trade does not SOLVE a pg problem. SF would STILL BE STARTING AT PG. If you want a better backup pg then BENCH MOOCH and pick up a fa like mark jackson or make a trade for a better scrub pg with a much better contract than friggin alvin williams. You don't make shake up your roster to get a BACKUP PG. You would be a friggin idiot to do so. If Toronto could get a decent post player for all those players mentioned in this thread, they would have dealt them already. No one would give us a decent big man for Alvin williams, Pike, JJ, Boki, MoPete, or Lamond Murray. No one. Wingmen are a dime a dozen.

 

Mobley has talent granted, but you WAAAAYYYYYYY over value him. You said yourself wingmen are a dime a dozen. Would you like me to list all the SF/2guards in the league that averages MORE than Cat's 15.8 PPG, or his 17.3 career PPG? I can even include only the ones that averages more than his 3.9 boards and 2.6 dimes. This would be made even easier if it's the "per 48 mins" (stat everybody likes to throw around here to prove Kelvin Cato's greatness), considering the obscene amount of minutes he get. MoPete is a scrub, Cat is a better scrub. As the mentioned, the prob is MoPete is a scrub and knows it, Cat doesn't.

The Bulls don't need a big man? Their baby bulls are progressing so smoothly it would make Shawn Bradley proud. They need somebody who can produce now. Why do you think they traded for AD's bad contract? So they can have a bad contract? I'd understand that if Jerry Krause was still the GM. In Toronto, Marshall would be PF behind Bosh, Bateer after Michael Bradley (cuz I never expect Eric Montross to play again). Ironically if we are to using per 48 mins stats Bradley would also be better than Cato. Ironically (sadly actually), in his limited minutes, he's also playing better than Cato. Not to mention he doesn't have a bad contract. So if Cato is a starting C in the EC, Bradley's a star.

Any move that leaves your core players intact AND puts Moochie on the IR is a good move. That instantly improves the PG spot. Somehow you think AW is old and Mark Jackson isn't. If AW is old then MJ (not the good one either) is ancient. Trading away Cat also instantly improves team play. Wingmen may be a dime a dozen, one who would do whatever it takes to get stats and screwing up the whole team is a needle in a haystack. Ricky Davis is the only one that instantly comes to mind. Players who play for stats are quite common but one he cares ONLY about stats and not about team wins are rare.

 

I don't overrate Mobes. I don't think we could get a whole lot for him in trade from most teams because of the sheer amount of depth at sg at this point in time in the league. But that doesn't mean this trade is good. And MoPete would be wasted on the bench and be gone next year as a fa. MoPete isn't better than JJ, Pike, or Lamond Murray for that matter.

The Bulls don't need a big man? Their baby bulls are progressing so smoothly it would make Shawn Bradley proud. They need somebody who can produce now. Why do you think they traded for AD's bad contract? So they can have a bad contract? I'd understand that if Jerry Krause was still the GM. In Toronto, Marshall would be PF behind Bosh, Bateer after Michael Bradley (cuz I never expect Eric Montross to play again). Ironically if we are to using per 48 mins stats Bradley would also be better than Cato. Ironically (sadly actually), in his limited minutes, he's also playing better than Cato. Not to mention he doesn't have a bad contract. So if Cato is a starting C in the EC, Bradley's a star.

With the addition of AD, Chicago has no real need for JYD. Fizer brings more to the table at a much cheaper price. Curry and Chandler will get their minutes. They traded Rose because they view him as a cancer now, plain and simple. Bradley isn't better than Cato at this point. 48 mpg stats are bogus and weak to hang your arguments on unless they are getting significant time to play.

Any move that leaves your core players intact AND puts Moochie on the IR is a good move. That instantly improves the PG spot. Somehow you think AW is old and Mark Jackson isn't. If AW is old then MJ (not the good one either) is ancient. Trading away Cat also instantly improves team play. Wingmen may be a dime a dozen, one who would do whatever it takes to get stats and screwing up the whole team is a needle in a haystack. Ricky Davis is the only one that instantly comes to mind. Players who play for stats are quite common but one he cares ONLY about stats and not about team wins are rare.

When the same pg as before is will be playing the majority minutes as before you are not improving your pg spot. I know MJ is old, but he's a better deal at the minimum for one year than AW's ugly contract. If it were up to you we'd have around 20 million committed to the pg spot alone. Gimme a break. Bench Mobes? Fine. Trade him away for perhaps another wingman who may not be of equal value to improve team chemistry? Maybe. Trade Cat and Cato for 5 swingmen and tie up all our caproom in Mo and the 1-3 positions, leaving us no room to get a big man? Idiotic. You don't make trades contingent on the possibility of trading a small for big later, because the likelyhood of that happening is nill.

Look, I'm not saying the talent level is at a grand disparity in this crap trade(even though we would be giving up the best player), but it solves no roster problem for us. It does NOT make us a better team, so it is a stupid trade.

 

I would LOVE to see a list of swingmen that average 15.8 ppg, 3.9 rpg, and 2.6 apg as the third option on their teams.

 

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
03-04 ATL 19 19 35.9 .511 .308 .884 2.80 6.70 9.50 2.5 1.11 .42 2.32 2.70 19.8

Carmelo Anthony
03-04 DEN 17 17 35.2 .385 .315 .735 2.50 4.40 6.80 3.1 1.18 .88 3.12 2.90 17.9

Ray Allen
02-03 -- 76 75 37.9 .439 .377 .916 1.20 3.80 5.00 4.4 1.36 .18 2.61 2.90 22.5

His 03-04 stats are not on nba.com for some reason

Ron Artest
03-04 IND 17 17 38.5 .441 .354 .647 1.20 4.60 5.80 3.3 2.35 1.06 2.65 2.90 18.2

Love to have him

Kobe Bryant

03-04 LAL 16 16 35.7 .466 .313 .858 1.10 2.70 3.80 3.9 1.94 .44 2.13 3.30 21.4


Vince Carter
03-04 TOR 17 17 37.4 .406 .280 .860 1.30 3.40 4.60 4.6 1.00 .76 3.35 2.70 22.7

Baron Davis
03-04 NOH 18 18 40.7 .398 .368 .617 1.10 3.70 4.80 8.4 2.78 .44 3.00 2.80 24.1

Included him cuz I really hate to admit he's a PG (one better than Steve at that)

Ricky Davis
03-04 CLE 17 17 37.2 .430 .333 .700 .80 4.80 5.60 4.9 1.35 .47 3.00 2.50 16.5

Ricky got more dimes that Cat? That's just F*CKIN' wrong. Or is it?

Michael Finley
03-04 DAL 18 18 37.9 .417 .354 .849 1.20 3.70 4.80 3.1 1.39 .50 1.17 1.40 15.8

Didn't include Steve cuz he's already on the team. But admit it, he's a 2guard.

Kevin Garnett
03-04 MIN 17 17 39.2 .491 .143 .734 3.30 10.80 14.10 4.6 .94 2.53 2.35 2.50 23.2

Richard Hamilton
03-04 DET 18 18 35.2 .473 .250 .862 1.20 2.50 3.70 3.0 1.17 .00 2.83 2.90 19.2

Matt Harpring
03-04 UTA 15 15 35.6 .458 .133 .687 3.60 4.90 8.50 2.1 .40 .07 1.87 3.60 16.9
Lower assists but MUCH more boards.

Allen Iverson
03-04 PHI 18 18 43.7 .402 .291 .747 .70 2.80 3.60 6.5 3.00 .06 4.11 1.90 28.8

LeBron James
03-04 CLE 18 18 40.5 .412 .347 .700 1.60 5.30 6.90 6.3 1.22 .67 3.67 2.10 17.6

can play 1, 2, 3 = included here.

Andrei Kirilenko
03-04 UTA 16 16 36.3 .505 .343 .892 2.90 4.80 7.70 3.1 1.88 2.31 2.50 2.60 17.4

Corey Maggette
03-04 LAC 13 13 36.3 .428 .277 .848 1.50 4.80 6.30 2.9 .69 .23 2.38 3.30 20.2

Marbury, freakin' Marbury. I refuse to believe he's a PG (see Baron Davis)

Jamal Mashburn
02-03 NOH 82 81 40.5 .422 .389 .848 .80 5.30 6.10 5.6 1.01 .21 2.80 2.40 21.6

No 03-04 stats

Tracy McGrady
03-04 ORL 16 16 39.0 .433 .345 .811 1.40 4.80 6.30 5.5 1.00 .88 2.94 2.10 24.3

Paul Pierce
03-04 BOS 17 17 37.6 .405 .357 .846 .90 6.10 7.10 5.5 1.35 .82 4.47 3.10 22.3

Michael Redd
03-04 MIL 18 18 37.0 .454 .387 .873 1.80 4.20 6.00 2.8 1.11 .06 1.56 2.10 22.2

Jason Richardson
03-04 GSW 11 11 39.4 .458 .282 .702 1.60 7.20 8.80 3.3 .82 .45 2.64 1.70 19.5

Jerry Stackhouse
Injured, but pretty much speaks for himself.

Jason Terry
03-04 ATL 18 18 36.9 .450 .365 .857 .80 4.20 5.00 5.1 1.17 .28 3.17 2.70 18.7

Jason man, time to admit ya ain't a PG.



Other notables that had more points but lower boards/dimes
Allan Houston
03-04 NYK 16 16 38.1 .435 .310 .919 .50 1.70 2.20 2.4 .88 .13 2.56 2.40 19.7

Richard Jefferson
03-04 NJN 17 17 38.4 .462 .333 .766 1.50 3.90 5.50 3.5 1.41 .41 2.47 3.20 14.4

Eddie Jones
03-04 MIA 16 16 36.1 .407 .371 .842 .60 3.70 4.30 2.6 1.13 .19 1.63 3.30 20.6

Rashard Lewis
03-04 SEA 13 13 38.2 .463 .419 .734 1.80 4.20 6.00 2.3 1.15 .85 1.69 2.80 21.8

Shawn Marion
03-04 PHO 14 14 36.9 .437 .278 .892 2.20 5.50 7.70 1.9 1.43 1.71 1.50 2.40 15.5

Lamar Odom
03-04 MIA 16 16 36.8 .410 .333 .638 1.50 5.90 7.40 3.8 .75 .50 3.69 3.40 15.2

Quentin Richardson
03-04 LAC 13 12 34.3 .404 .358 .800 2.20 4.80 7.00 1.8 1.15 .15 2.15 2.20 18.5

Glenn Robinson
03-04 PHI 4 4 36.5 .411 .462 .833 1.80 4.50 6.30 2.5 .75 .25 2.75 2.30 15.5

Wally Szczerbiak
02-03 MIN 52 42 35.3 .481 .421 .867 1.00 3.60 4.60 2.6 .85 .42 1.67 2.40 17.6

Keith Van Horn
03-04 NYK 12 12 34.8 .361 .239 .860 1.70 5.10 6.80 1.8 1.08 .33 3.08 3.80 15.0



Many are also close and would have higher stats than Cat is given more mins: eg.

Antawn Jamison
03-04 DAL 18 1 28.5 .486 .286 .754 2.70 3.80 6.50 1.3 .89 .33 .89 1.70 14.1

Don't think anybody would doubt he's better though (at least I hope not)

This is far from a complete list too. I missed a few going through. Damn Cat's talents are unique, I'm converted.

Like I said, the only thing Cat has over the average SF/2guards in this league is his contract.

 

To start, what's the point of getting MJ? OK, assuming we can convince him to come out of his retirement to join a team that's playing like crap, assuming he can still hold up, assuming he actually plays well and makes the team better, hell I'll even assume he takes us to the final THIS SEASON, he'll retire again. Hell even more reason to do so if he takes us to the finals, "hey look what I can do, I'm #2 on the all time dime list AND I took a lottery team to the finals when I'm 40." The point is he'll be GONE next season and we'll be right back where we started. Then we go back to the stupid guard play. Worse, this time we'll be convinced it works and you'll see the kind of ugly ball even Houston fans haven't seen before, with an older Steve and Cat.

The thing about AW is he's a decent player in a slump, not Moochie. He CAN run the offence better Steve. The only issue is his contract, which if you're patient enough, comes off the books for Houston to rebuild. And quite frankly, I'd much rather see AW with Yao and Steve than Cat.

JYD coming off the bench after Fizer? Hell sure looks different to me.
03-04 CHI 1 0 28.0 .800 .000 1.000 4.00 6.00 10.00 2.0 4.00 .00 1.00 4.00 13.0

He played very well I might add. Either Fizer or Chandler got off the bench with JYD playing backup 4. So I don't know, maybe the Bulls management see something you don't see?

I know per 48 mins stat is useless. I used it as a veiled jab at some of the posters here who uses it to prove Cato's greatness, if you haven't noticed. And Michael Bradley IS playing better. He's getting half less pt (5.0 to 5.5 for Cato), 3 less boards and 1 more dime in 11 less mins. He's also about 5 years younger. So yeah why would Toronto trade for a scrub like Cato?

 

Just a minor comment...

Alvin Williams is not a backup. The only time he was ever a backup in the past 4 years was when he was injured, as was the case earlier this yar. Alvin being Alvin, he tried to play through it.


I don't know where the people who keep calling him a backup are getting their ideas...from the game earlier this year when, after turning his injured ankle in practice, he could barely walk but still tried to give them 10 mins?

He has been, as people do, getting healthier. In the past 5 games he has scored 13, 15, 8, 15, and 15 pts respectively, while shooting 20 for 35. Rose was not acquired to play ahead of Williams at pg, but ahead of Murray at sf. Last night, after the trade, Williams started the game at the point and played 35 minutes, whereas Murray, who had been starting at sf, didn't see the floor. How that qualifies as Williams is a back-up is beyond me. Rose will be the second pg, and they will all interchange a lot, as they've now got a very versatile lineup, but under no designation is Alvin Williams a back-up, nor, barring injury, will he be.

 

Williams would be backup on this team and is not a better pg than steve raptor fans.

JYD - 1 game big deal, that really proves your point. Even if he's starting - he's still a throw in.

talking about how stats don't necessarily matter, but yeah throw out that argument when it comes to Cato eh?

oh and nice little list, but you still didn't answer stupidmoniker's question.

 

Nowhere near the talent, agreed. But it depends on what you want out of your point guard. Williams is among the better defensive points, hits clutch shots routinely, is ( when healthy, as in for 3 straight years tilll last) among the top 10 in asst/tunover ratio, never show boats, never looks to shoot at the team's cost, and husltes full out, hurt or healthy, each and every minute he's on the floor. When you're talking talent, of course, it's not close...when you're talking who's a better point guard, I think it depends on what you want from your point guard.

And if we had Steve, Mobes, and Alvin, I am willing to bet Alvin starts at the point, Steve at the 2, and Mobes as the 6th man. Williams is exactly the kind of guy we'd need to be our Snow.

 

I totally lied, it seems. Rose is starting at the point tonight, although Williams' ankle was cited as a reason, as was O'Neil's desire to find out what he's got in his new players/tinker...

 

Hydra and Crisco are both Cat-only fans. Don't bother trying to reason with them. Esp. Hydra, aka StupidMoniker.

I, on the other hand, am of course a CatHata24/7/365. Perhaps I should change my moniker, too. So, discount what I say as well.
The truth is somewhere in between (but more on my side). If you want to side with the selfish, disruptive, pro-bonehead ball contingent, go ahead, center your team around that. Be my guest. You want a not-so-complementary second-class player to drag down your franchise so he can play his way, fine. Just get another uniform, please.

 

You're right.

Alvin Williams is a golden commodity.

And Palacio is Palawesome. Steve Francis is the worst player ever.

 

Okay...i sort of lied when I said I lied. Williams is starting, but Rose is at 1, AW at 2 ( they're interchagning) and Carter at 3 so they can match him up with PP.