Sort of ironic, but Steve, being a converted SG, sometimes doesn't shoot it enough. A bit unselfish, imo. Now, are we gonna start a trade Cuttino thread because he went 2 for 12 last night? Or should we just register that as an off night. I'd prefer the latter and I wish Steve were given that benefit here.
I didn't read most of this cat-fight. I just wanted to say that I'd probably take that deal on a strictly talent-consideration. Miller is just about as great a player as Francis and more of a PG (and there's the migraines to worry about). Thomas is a redundency and Mihm fills a need. The #1 would be what seals it though. Even so, I wouldn't want to make such a monumental change when Francis is doing fine. PR would be a nightmare and it'd probably hurt the team's rep among free agents. Besides, I doubt Cleveland would want to do the trade either. I don't think they'd trade Miller for Francis straight up.
Andre Miller puts up good numbers on a sh*tty team. Big deal. Numbers don't mean anything if you're losing 50+ games every season. At least with Steve, you can point to last season's record as proof that this team can win with him, when we're at full strength. Chalk this year up to our projected starters (MoTay, Steve, Rice) missing way too many games. If you trade for Miller you're rolling the dice on the hope that he can somehow find a way to translate his #s to wins, which he hasn't done in Cleveland.
SamCassell, i could see what you are saying if Andre was dropping in 30ppg on a sh*tty team. but he's dropping 11 dimes and grabbing boards on a sh*tty team. big scoring #s can be dismissed on sh*tty teams because, hey, who else is gonna shoot? but the boards and dishes along with the points are indicative of a true player. as for steve last year, he had a good surrounding cast to help him. give andre that same cast and i'll bet dollars to donuts that he does AT LEAST as well as stevie did. is it a roll of the dice? sure. i'll agree with that. but andre miller has been doing this since college. this is not an aberration. the dude is the second coming of j-kidd. steve is a player, but i have a problem with converted shooting guards who don' t have point guard instincts, and don't want to be converted into a two guard. think about it...steve WILL NOT push the ball up court. that's something you cannot blame on rudy. that's a natural instinct that HAS to be there. can it be taught? maybe. but that's completely beside the point. the point is that it NEEDS to be taught to our "point guard". for steve to play the point, he has to "think" on the court...which is why, IMO, he has so many turnovers. it's hard to play efficiently and well when you aren't playing "naturally". bball is meant to be played instinctually - and steve does anything but that. imagine kobe bryant or vince carter at the point. could they do it? sure. but they would make terrible point guards. their teams would not get involved as easily as they would with a pure point.
With regards to the rebounding, many Francis critics (not you necessarily) believe that Steve has good rebounding #'s because our big men can't rebound. Is it not true in Miller's case? Off the subject, but 7.4 rebounds from a PG is pretty rare. I really like Miller alot. But, I think alot of his assists could be attributed to guys like Person and Murray. Great spot up shooters. They goto the spot, and Andre finds them in a half court set. The Rockets don't have many spot up shooters or even good finishers.
If we were going to trade Francis away for anyone, I'd rather have Davis. He's bigger, stronger, & a compromise between Miller & Francis's stats. Here's a stat comparison: PG Andre Miller (16.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 10.7 apg in 36.6 minutes) PG Steve Francis (21.6 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 6.6 apg in 40.8 minutes) PG Baron Davis (19.4 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 8.6 apg in 40.2 minutes)
gr8-1, i don't believe that to be true. francis/miller/kidd are all great rebounders because...they are great rebounders. they just have a nose for the ball...in the same way that motay does not have a nose for the ball.
With each game, its becoming increasingly clear that Francis is not meant to be a one. His refusal to play 2 means this team is stuck with a marbury type player. I think the Miller/Kidd analogy is perfect. The fact that he can average so many assists with the SCRUBS in Cleveland is just incredible. For an example, just look at some of the looks he had in the Cavs/Rockets game. So they haven't gotten the wins yet? He has only played in Cleveland a short time, and with no talent around him whatsoever. I mean alteast Francis has mobley and had Mo last year. A true point gaurd is very very rare in this league, particularly versus an athletic shooter. Personally, I would do the trade b/c there is no doubt Miller is your next point guard for the next 12 years. With Francis, you only can hope that he can become a great point. And if Houston does develop Griffin and another player into scoring options, you begin to rely more on Francis as a passer, not a scorer.
I agree with you, verse, that Andre has superior PG instincts to Steve. He's just flat-out played PG more than Steve has, and he's better at distributing the ball and pushing the tempo. That said, I think assist numbers can be inflated like scoring numbers can. 99% of the plays run by the Utah Jazz over the last decade have started with John Stockton. The plays that Utah run very frequently result in assists for him when they succeed, because it's pass-drive-bucket or pass-jumper-bucket. Imagine if Mr. Flops-a-lot played with Hakeem back in the day, running the Rockets old offense. He would pass to the low post, where Dream would execute a series of Dream Shakes for a few seconds before scoring or passing off if a double team case - either way, Stock would lose out on the assist. Case in point, Mike Bibby racked up 8.4 assists last season on a bad team, but is getting only 5.1 this season with a very good team. Sac-town's runs a different offense and has plenty of great passers on their squad, so his assist numbers have taken a dive.
so, Sam, are you saying that the rockets are loaded with great passers? is that the reason for steve's poor assist #s and turnover #s? do you see what i'm sayin...? steve's poor passing #s are not a "bibby-effect" of the offense being loaded w/great passers. in fact, we have very POOR passers, so steve should be getting the majority of the assists. sure, our lack of movement hurts his assist #s...but lemme ask you this: how likely are you to move, if you really aren't receiving the ball when/where you want it? to me, the rocks and the cavs are not all that dissimilar. you could say the cavs have good jump shooters in murray and person. ok, don't the rocks have good jump shooters? cat? griff? walt? torres? kt (15 on in)? langhi (nvrmind, he doesn't get in)? mo tay (last year)? and shouldn't steve (as the more explosive scorer) draw more attention than andre when he penetrates...thus setting up more opportunities for dimes? you can point to %s and say cleveland's 2 jump shooters are better than ours, but i'm just gonna tell you that the point guard help to make average shooters into better shooters. who is the impetus for both offenses? the point guard. who receives ALL the attention on both teams? the point guard. in fact, you could argue that steve should be doing better, since he does have cat to help him out (draw some attention away). who does miller have? yet, he finds a way to not only score, but to hit his teammates coming off of screens. as for stockton and hakeem...i'd hate to think that rudy wouldn't have had john stockton (possibly the best court vision of any point guard in history) playing the kenny smith "bring it down and set up a tent @ the 3 pt line" pg role, but somehow, i think i'd be wrong... seriously, he wouldn't have had as many assists, but he'd be damn close, still. and the ONLY reason he wouldn't have had as many assists, and we would've ran the same offense, is because a) hakeem's hands were not nearly as good as malone's and b) no one could stop hakeem one on one...or two on one.
No, I'm not saying that Franchise's assist numbers are down because of our great passing. Just that the offense and his role in it is different than the Cavs offense and Miller's role. Look at Cuttino. There are plenty of ISO-type plays (among others) that the Rockets run starting with the Cat. When the play consists of Cuttino beating his man off the dribble and finishing, Steve's not likely to get an assist. The Rockets also run alot of 3 guard offense, with Mooch playing the point and Steve the SG. Those plays consist of Moochie dribbling the ball. And some more dribbling. And then he'll pass it off to someone with about 3 seconds left on the shot clock. On those plays, Steve doesn't get a chance at an assist either. So now you're left with few options for Francis to get assists on any given play. Cato? Hardly a good scoring option. Kenny? I guess. Bad hands Willis? At least he'll jack up a shot pretty quick. Eddie? If you want to see him shoot another long range 3, sure. Frankly, I'm surprised that Steve gets as many assists as he does, given our current offense and roster.
SamCassell, i'll agree with you that steve does not get as many "assist opportunities" in our lineup. my question is, if he is a great passer (which point guards should be), why would rudy take the ball out of his hands as much as he does? p.s. re: moochie...see my sig...
Francis is not like Payton <b>at all</b> IMO. Miller is not much like Payton either IMO. Francis is more similar to Marbury than he is to Payton IMO. When have I <b>ever</b> been the "Payton torch carrier" on this bbs? I think this is the first thread that I have ever even mentioned his name.
i agree 100%. payton is a ball-dominating point guard who frequently looks to come down court and post his man, often alienating his teammates in the process.
my question is, if he is a great passer (which point guards should be), Ah, now we're getting to it. Bottom line, you prefer your point guard to be a great passer. Truth be told, I like those types too. But I'm more interested in forgetting the labels and looking at overall BBall skills, whether we're talking about a point guard or a center or whatever. Steve is not a great passer (might become one someday, but it's not a given) but he is an excellent all-around player. re: moochie...see my sig...
