I would be against this trade not because Francis is that much better than Miller or vice versa ( they seem kinda close, with Miller being a better PG ) but it's hard to see why we need the chemistry change now and who knows how Miller would fit in here. Let's see what happens when Maurice is healthy and if we still have the same problems, let's change coaches.
well i would hope, timing, that ill admit i messed up on that but that trade would be a downgrade talent wise for us and thus i wouldn't do it
pure point: miller i guess-but we havent seen steve at simply having to distribute and not play his iverson role better overall player: steve
Francis is better, in my opinion. As for Stockton, was there ever a year in which John Stockton was the best point guard in the NBA?
This trade has been proposed before and has been rejected by the majority of the people before. I agree with those who say that Miller is the more prototypical "pure" point guard, but Francis is the better overall player. The fact that we have a winning record with Francis in the lineup and have been destroyed almost all the time when he was not there says it all. Something I am wondering about...traditionally, how many championships have the teams with the best so-called "pure" point guards won (Stockton, Kidd...)?
I thought that there was a fair concensus that our offensive scheme stinks: little or no ball movement, shoot-first attitudes, too much one-on-one, etc. What are we defending here. No doubt Steve is a great talent but does he have the all-around skills or attitude to play the point?
It's not that bad of a trade. Andre Miller isn't exactly chopped liver. I think he's almost as good as Steve in his own way; they're just different types of players. However, I would want to keep Steve at this point in time unless one of the following happens: 1. Eddie Griffin blossoms into an awesome Kevin Garnett type of player (24 pt, 10 reb, 4 ast, 2.5 blk). If Griffin proves he can carry a team like Garnett or Duncan, then I would rather have Andre Miller there to feed him the ball and make few mistakes rather than Steve Francis feeding him the ball and trying to do too many other things too. 2. Steve's migraine problem does not go away. If this inner ear disease or whatever does not get better and he will be missing games here and there throughout his career, then I would rather have Andre Miller. It's a dependability issue.
Steve vs Miller to me is this Who would you rather have. . . .. . Gary Payton or John Stockton [I know steve is not gary's defense but. . . . the comparison holds] These are the players I see the becoming I have not watched him but. . .what the hell is gary doing in Seattle they are playing some good ball this year . . .according to their record. . . .. and they have lass talent than most I prefer the gary payton to Stockton What is stockton without Malone. . . . What would stockton be in another system besides the pick and roll? how many of his assist come off the pick and roll? IMO Stockton is a one trick pony . . . .BUT IT IS D*MN GOOD TRICK In another system he would be good but no what he is now even less without a workhorse like malone [Miller IMO will be better than Stock....he is more athletic and can adapt better. . . if miller doesn't resign with cleveland. . . Utah should move heaven and earth to get him] In closing. . I prefer the gary Payton athletic CAN DO IT ALL guard who chooses otherwise. . . . to the Stockton . . ..frame guard. Rocket River
Interesting discussion!! Andre Miller is a helluva playerand right now the better pure PG. Thing that concerns me about Stevie is that his on court decision making is showing no signs of improvement. He makes the game harder than it needs to be. Dribbles into traffic, between the legs dribbling that accomplishes nothing, and unforced turnovers He is beginning to challenge Moochie for running the clock down. One play last nite was a perfect example. He comes down with a three on two, passes up an easy shot at the foul line, waits for the defense to set up and then misses a 25 footer. Thought Calvin was going to go nuts. He really needs Calvin or somebody to tutor him!! He is already a really good player and his potential is incredible. But his innate basketball decision making skills have a ways to go. Dallas Rocket
This thread is making me sick! Andre is the better pg , but Steve is the better player! And if Rockets traded KT for Mihm I would call to cancel my season tickets as soon as possible.
Sorry man, but you can't call yourself a Rockets fan anymore. Anybody who would waste that much time dreaming up such bullsh!t has to be from Ohio. Take that crap back to Cleveland.
Marbury is a better player than Terrell Brandon, but the Wolves played better with Brandon in the lineup. There's a lot more to building a great team than simply gathering stars. Right now, I would prefer we hold onto Francis, but if Griffin ever proves capable of carrying this team, I would rather have someone like Andre here to help him do it. Just because someone has a different philosophy on how to improve their team does not make them any less of a fan. Gary Payton has averaged 3 turnovers per game only <b>twice</b> in his 12 year career (3.21 in '95, 3.08 in '98). His career turnover average is a miniscule 2.52. He has averaged 8.1 assists per game since 1994 (the first year he started playing over 36 mins per game). Francis has averaged 3.97, 3.31 and 4.08 the past three years (3.72 career) with only 6.5 assists per game to show for it. Gary Payton is a better point guard <b>and</b> player than Steve Francis. Aside from rebounding (and who really cares about PG rebounding?), there is no single category in which Francis outperforms, or has outperformed Payton. They both score around the same number of points, but Gary is substantially better in assists, turnovers and defense. So no, I don't think the Francis-Payton comparison is accurate. Stephon Marbury would be a better comparison. Even though Marbury, like Payton, has a clear edge in assists over Francis, at least the turnovers and lack of defense are at least somewhat more similar.
I think the only reason anyone is even considering such a stupid thing as trading aware our future superstar is due to our regret for not doing the Portland trade of Sampson for the second pick and Drexler in 1984. We all wish we had then picked Jordan, and then traded McCrae for Barkley or Thorpe, and perhaps traded Lewis Loyd or Robert Reid for a good PG. But who knew that Sampson would have a career diminishing injury, and that Dream and Sampson wouldn't shake up the whole league as the "Twin Towers." Everyone wanted one of the two centers. And, who knew that Jordan would turn out so amazing... Portland didn't even pick him, since they wanted a center, taking Sam Bowie ... The woulda, coulda, shoulda game only works in hindsight, and is a real slight to a wonderful player, in Francis, who has had such a great attitude toward building this team to become a future challenger... And hoping we could do something like 1984 again, is really unrealistic. The only way you can do this type of thing, is if the pick that is in the deal is able to be used on one of the "superstars" that comes out of this draft. Will that be Wagner, Williams, Ming, Gooden, or even Stoudamire? Cleveland's pick probably won't get one of those, and most of those guys will take too long to develop. That's a huge risk. What if we had thought that Sam Bowie was the future superstar, and Sampson went somewhere else and didn't get injured? That wouldn't have looked like such a great trade. Hindsight is the only thing that mitigates this type of risk. But, we CAN still all dream about the Dream/Barkley/Jordan/Drexler/whoeverPG team, though ... and do the woulda, coulda, shoulda game one more time ...
These deals don't go down until the trading deadline in the contract year. When is that? I really like Andre Miller. But I don't see who he passes to, yet. I'd want that guy to show himself. Maybe Eddie, but he hasn't earned it yet. I prefer the extra assists and court vision of Lamar Odom with our current mix. Duh. For the 1000th time. Hydra's trade is intriguing. Tim Duncan and our cast, even (even?)with Mooch at the pg, is pretty formidable. More so than SA. Logjam at PF, but so? Beat them up inside. Mooch/Brown/? Cat/Torres lotto?/Griff?/Rice Duncan/Tayor? Cato/Duncan or Mooch/Brown/? Cat/Torres lotto?/KT?/Tayor?/Rice Duncan/Tayor Cato/Duncan or Mooch/Brown/? Cat/Torres KT/lotto?/Rice Griff/Tayor Duncan/Cato Whatever. SF plus whatever for Duncan is a steal. That won't happen, anyway, with salary match problems. I'd love to throw in big buck busts with SF (Rice, Taylor, Cato) - depends on what's out there. But the rule of thumb is always trade small for big, if possible. Duncan leaving SA is a chance. I'm not all jazzed about Duncan/Cat , essentially, with help from Griff or Taylor or KT or whatever, but that's a darn good place to build a contender from. I'd still love to see the Odom deal AND then the Duncan deal. That's even more attractive. Duncan is the kind of guy you get an Andre Miller for. Not Griff, so far, and I'm a big fan. Duncan and Miller is a pretty scary combo: add passable to ok outside and inside talent, you get a good shot at Shaq and Kobe. Ok, I'm rambling. blah. Good points by several here o nboth sides. Please avoid the ad hominem arguements and the post hoc proper hoc logical fallacies. You'll be glad you did .
Fade Away Learn to extrapolate the comparison is between miller and Francis not Francis and Payton Francis is closer to Payton than Miller IMO while Miller is closer to stockton IMO I did not mean to offend the Payton torch carrier Rocket River
i did not realize that the majority of the bbs was so set on the fact that we HAVE to have a scoring point guard, and that the BEST distributing point guard in the nba (who just happens to be averaging 5 points less than steve) would be a downgrade. personally, i think many (not all) of you are just giving knee-jerk reactions to the idea of trading the beloved "stevie franchise". in fact, if i don't think ANY proposal would be to your liking. but, i'm all for bettering this franchise, and, all things being equal, a pure point guard is better than a shooting guard turned point guard. ex: jason kidd v stephon marbury
