Verse: What is it with you in wanting to trade Francis??? You wanted to trade him for Lamar Odom and now for Andre Miller. I like Miller's game and wished that the Rockets could get him, but there is no way in hell, I would trade Francis for him. I would only trade Francis for a select few players in the league.
Verse, how can you even propose that trade? Kenny is way better than Mihm. Francis is leaps and bounds more talented than Miller. Francis might not dish the ball out as well, but Francis is the Rockets team. If it wasn't for the headaches, Francis would be the 6th best player in the league. Just behind Shaq, Duncan, Bryant, Garnett, and Webber. So, hell no to that trade!!!! That is just not a good trade. In hindsight it could be if Francis can never recover from his headache problems. But, a lot of people deal with Migrains and they find ways to cope with them. Stupid reason to make this trade.
Verse, SF3 has been on this board for quite awhile and is not a lurker, sorry to disappoint you. Also, has it ever occurred to you that statistics are overrated. Plus, miller is basically the cavs only option, thus i would hope his stats are top notch. I watched andre in the final four with Utah and with cleveland and no doubt he's a good player. But NOT for this team. Unless we are shipping mobley out for some odd reason. The 2-19 stat without francis is very relevant, we lost because we could not consistently SCORE in crunch time. Guess what, if you think Jason Kidd lite will provide the necessary scoring you are crazy. We would end up with a pathetic record with him on our current team in place of steve. Plus if you can name me 3 players in houston equal to van horn, martin and kittles go ahead, not counting the weakness of that conference. Theres one right now and thats mobley, next year two in taylor, griffin is not consistent enough to qualify right now. Also like I said look at the championship teams, you need superstar talents with good role players to win, thus i keep steve over a good, albeit solid pg in miller. We have a good nucleus in francis,mobley,taylor,griffin, if we don't do well next year at full strength sure a change may be in order. Remember it took the Lakers about 10 years to completely rebuild, same for the pre michael Bulls, patience is a virtue. Timing, I'd rather put my hands in a superstar caliber player in steve than a solid player in miller, sorry. As far as record goes, the phoenix led kidd teams all averaged about 45-50 wins, guess what we did that last year too. It just so happened the West was incredibly tough and we missed the playoffs. Any other year we would've made them. With a healthy nucleus of griffin,francis,taylor,mobley we will be contenders for a long time and should consistently win 50 plus games.
THERE IS NO WAY CLEVELAND DOES THIS. you even admit it, francis wont resign (or the same chance as miller...meaning none). and for them to throw in a great pick too? not a chance. sorry.
and i still have extreme difficulty accepting this idea that the league leader in assists, who's also an excellent rebounding guard, and capable for going off for 30+, and pushes the ball upcourt, and turns the ball over much less than our current 2guard turned point guard ... could be a step down....
Did i say miller is not a good player? No I did not say any such thing. But if you dare tell me andre miller is a super scoring point guard, which you seem to believe, you need to brush up on your basketball. He does not have a great offensive game,period. He scores in cleveland because, honestly, who else will. I would also like to see how many 30 point games miller has had. It won't be many, just like jason kidd has very few of them. On our current roster we need steve to play an iverson/marbury role and he does it quite well. The reason he has that high turnover number directly relates to how much he touches the ball as the primary scorer for us. Miller, on the other hand, is more of a passer and does not look to create his own offense, thus fewer turnovers. Is it really hard to comprehend what I'm saying, we need steve to score on his own to win big. Miller simply is not that kind of player. The fit would be horrible. Plus like I said miller is a good pg who can LEAD a very nice team. Steve is a combo guard who can be the primary option or 2nd one for a championship team, like isiah was.
DV, how many points did our high scoring pg have tonight (and we won)? and where did i say andre was a super scorer?
oh, and DV, we obviously would not run the same type of offense if andre were here. we'd run (gasp) more movement and would get more fast breaks (since he actually runs the ball upcourt)... oh, and we'd actually have a point guard that plays defense. *** and, i know that SF3 isn't a lurker on the site. i can read his post count and see that. i meant a lurker on this thread. he contributed exactly nothing...
Nugzfan, This is not an endorsement for the deal, or saying either team would necessarily do it. But Cleveland might do so even knowing that Steve wouldn't stay because they could at least do a sign-and-trade. And even though every team knows that Steve would basically be holding them hostage, other teams would still have to offer fair talent knowing that other teams might make a better offer.
Cleveland is chock full of good jump shooters. Hell, outside of Miller, that is just about all they have. That is partially why his assists are high. You pass the ball to Wesley Person coming off a pick, that is an assist right there. The Rockets don't have anyone like that. Very few of our players are pure shooters, and the ones that are seem to be quite streaky. I would be surprised if Miller averaged much more than 7 assists on this Rockets team.
I thought we had Chris Mihm already OOPS. . . that is Jason Collier I'll keep KT THANK YOU VERY MUCH Miller is good. Steve is better. Mihm is adequate KT is SOLID C - Cato, Willis, Griffen PF - Griffen, Mo Kt sf KT, Rice, Torres SG Mobley, Torres, Steve pg Steve, Moochie looks better than C- Cato, Mihm, willis PF Griffen, Mo Mihm Sf Rice Walt Torres Sg Mobley, Torres PG Miller Moochie Miller is Moochie+consistancy there would be no CHange up when Moochie came in except . . . .streakiness Imagine the 3 guard line up of Moochie Miller and Mobley??? QUESTION to ask on this TRADE: How much is the system to blame/credit for each? If you put Steve on Cavs now. . . and Miller on the Rockets where would each be? Verse - would the rockets have a better record with Miller [not counting the migraines and injure]? Rocket River
what the hell is the obsession with trading the best player on our team that has the potential to be a top 5 player within a year or two. miller is good, steve is better. the only thing andre can do better is read defenses, something that he no doubt received from 4 years of playing point guard at utah. steve can develop that, this is his 3rd year of playing point. meanwhile andre has NO chance to become the athletic offensive scorer steve already is. he is just not blessed in that manner.
The Suns took a risk. Their defensive game plan tonight was: Shut down Steve Francis. The Rockets countered. Their offensive game plan tonight was: While the Suns focus their efforts on keeping Steve in check, we use that to our advantage by drawing double teams and using Steve's penetration to get everyone else going. As soon as Steve hit those two jumpers early on, the Suns came at him with Marion and double teams. Steve used this to his advantage tonight. He played smart basketball. Instead of trying to force his offense with the defense zeroed in on him, he stopped shooting, taking a low 10 shots, and fed others who had big nights, such as Mobley, KT and Walt. Why was this all possible? Because Steve, being the scoring threat that he is, used all of the attention the Suns were focusing on him to ther Rockets' advantage. I'm sorry if you feel that I am a "thread #29891 lurker", but I've just seen so many of these Francis + KT for Miller + threads that I didn't feel like repeating what had already been said by others in this thread, and past threads with nearly this exact same trade proposed. I also just don't believe in trading a player that a team only wins without once every blue moon. Also, as NugzFan said, this trade is bad for both sides. I couldn't imagine Francis resigning with the Cavaliers in a million years.
Who's talking about who you'd rather put your team's hands in? You said Miller was merely solid and then you compared him to Stockton who's one of the greatest point guards of all-time. Miller isn't just a solid player, he's one of the top point guards in the league. You can make all the excuses you want about Jason Kidd and the current Rockets team but don't allow your bias to cloud your judgement on an excellent young player like Miller. The way people go on about how great Mobley is you'd think people here would be wetting their pants at the prospects of nabbing Miller. BTW the reason Francis turns the ball over so much is that he makes really bad decisions and lacks the fundamentals of being a point guard. You act like Francis has the ball in his hands all the time and he certainly does not. And spare me the Isiah Thomas comparison. Isiah Thomas was a floor leader, a solid defender, and a very intelligent player. Steve is none of those things right now and hasn't really shown a lot of improvement in those areas.
miller is very good timing, but he wouldn't fit in our current system and do not believe him to be talent wise on par with steve, sorry
when i meant solid-i mean hes a terrell brandon kind of player, meaning i want him as a complement to my superstars not being the main focus. He doesn't seem to thrive in that environment
Dude, our current system is based on utilizing our athleticism because we have Steve. If we did trade Francis for Miller we'd quite obviously change our system just like Cleveland would change theirs. The system argument's got nothing to do with the trade. Steve is a better player however, I agree.
If I were to trade Francis, & that's a big if, I'd probably look for a better deal elsewhere. In any trade of Francis, we should be able to piggy back one of our larger contracts with it. Here's a couple of variations with the Clippers as trade partners. Houston trades: PG Steve Francis (21.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 6.6 apg in 40.7 minutes) C Kelvin Cato (6.8 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 0.3 apg in 25.8 minutes) L.A. Clippers trades: PG Keyon Dooling (4.1 ppg, 0.2 rpg, 0.9 apg in 11.1 minutes) SF Lamar Odom (13.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.9 apg in 34.5 minutes) C Michael Olowokandi (8.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 0.9 apg in 29.6 minutes) TRADE ACCEPTED Houston trades: PG Steve Francis (21.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 6.6 apg in 40.7 minutes) SF Glen Rice (8.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 1.6 apg in 30.3 minutes) L.A. Clippers trades: SF Lamar Odom (13.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.9 apg in 34.5 minutes) C Sean Rooks (3.0 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 11.8 minutes) PG Keyon Dooling (4.1 ppg, 0.2 rpg, 0.9 apg in 11.1 minutes) C Michael Olowokandi (8.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 0.9 apg in 29.6 minutes) TRADE ACCEPTED
