I think its time to realize that MoT's time as our starting 4 is over

speaking of, crispee-

Was it just me, or did the Rockets sort of go into a half zone using Griffin as a goalie? The positive of it, was layups were basically taken away. The negatives, were that Detroit had some solid mid range shooters that got open looks. Corliss Williamson took advantage by receiving the ball close to the bucket. and muscling it over Griffin.

To do what crispee is talking about takes some risks.
1. Foremost, Griffin would have to make his turnaround inside a money shot, so that the opposition doesn't put the SF on him.
2. KT must improve his quickness, and improve his range on his shot. The biggest thing he must do IMO, is learn perimeter defense. Fox is an excellent perimeter defender. I haven't seen Kenny defend out there much, because he's never been faced with the SF challenge.
3. Mo, Griffin, or both must get tougher.
4. Torres and Morris are crucial defensive players. In games when KT is outmatched by a SF, Torres and Morris must be able to play shutdown. Torres has the physical tools to match up with the shorter, quicker SFs like Sprewell, Paul Pierce or TMac. Morris can play the lanky tall ones, like Odom types.
5. Defensive concepts must improve. The guards must shut off the perimeter better, and the rotational D or zone concepts must work together well.

BTW, the SAR trade has worked out very well for Memphis. Gasol looks like a star, and Wright was playing like a monster before he got hurt.

As far as not trading, if you can get a stud SF, Kenny's expendable. But outside Brad Miller, whom I think we may be able to woo in free agency 2 years from now, or the always injured Theo Ratliff, there are no centers out there available that are better than Cato.

 

These discussions are often irksome to me because they call for speculation, which is fine if you have even a small amount of knowledge about what goes into solving the problem at hand but none of us do. We don't know what the team is thinking or considering. We don't know how these players will play together. We don't have any idea how Mo will respond to rehab.

But...

I'll say this.

If you make a trade, it will be KT and here's why:

1. He will be in the last year of his contract next year.
2. His contract is not large.
3. He is not coming off of a major injury like Taylor.

Personally, I think trading him is not the greatest idea because I think we have many of our solutions already on the team.

If we do have 4 legit scorers in Francis, Mobley, Taylor and Griffin and we believe that Francis and Griffin are perennial all star contenders and we believe that Mobley and Taylor can thrive offensively with Griffin and Francis, what really is left?

Is a center necessary? Do we need a stud at the small forward? Let's look at the basic facts:

- Taylor was in very good shape this offseason and part of that had come from losing weight. He was slimmer. He has the skills to play the 3, 4 and even can spell at the 5.

- Griffin has the quickness if not the lateral speed yet to cover the 3 position but his strength is at the 4. He also has the defensive skills to play minutes at the 5.

- Thomas has many of the right tools to be a solid power forward and even spend minutes at the three a la Gary Trent or Corliss Williamson.

- Kelvin Cato, while not close to a star, has provided glimpses of defense and rebounding. He doesn't give up a ton on the defensive end and is worth 6 fouls if nothing else against Shaq.

- Jason Collier is no defensive player but he can draw opposing centers out because of his outside shot.

- The jury is out still on Morris, but we know he has the defense and rebounding of a 4 in the body, and with the quickness, of a 3. If he can learn to knock down his shot, he will provide an option.

In short, the frontcourt of the future has two servicable, if not spectacular, centers and four players who can rotate between as many as three positions. Knowing what we do about Rudy, we are all aware that he loves two things:

1. Creating mismatches.
2. Players who can play multiple positions.

If you look at this team, we have that ability at pretty much every spot.

Francis/Norris
Mobley/Francis/Torres
Morris/Taylor/Griffin/Thomas/Torres/Mobley
Griffin/Taylor/Thomas/Morris
Cato/Collier/Taylor/Griffin

<font size=1>(I hate those lineup charts.)</font>

By my count, we could still use a pure shooter (i.e. Eddie Johnson, Dale Davis) and one physical muscle guy (i.e. Michael Cage, Otis Thorpe). Beyond that, we have enough offense and plenty of athleticism. The possible lineups are endless and we could easily hand out 30 mpg to Taylor and Griffin with Thomas, Morris, Cato and Collier splitting up between 20 and 30 each per game at various positions.

Even if we needed to move a player or two to fill the gaps, we have much of what we need minus the age and experience. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If we should have learned anything about the way the Rockets work, the starters aren't necessarily the guys who get all the minutes or who the team has on the floor in crunch time. It is about chemistry first.

 

Maurice Taylor usually gets the Rockets game going when he starts. With his jumpers, Taylor usually scores 8-10 in the first quarter. Eddie Griffin's game is also pretty good and he can excel in any position the coach calls for him to play. Kenny Thomas would be a great player to bring off the bench. Thomas has the ability to post-up, spin off his opponent to score, and shoot the three-pointer in clutch time. He also gives lots of effort as shown in his hustle. His defense and rebounding has also given the the Rockets a boost many times.

 

Crispee,

I think Kenny, Griffin, or Mo guarding SF will give the other team a bigger mismatch. None of them have shown me they're capable of guarding a SF on the perimeter, but I've seen SFs play inside against PFs semieffectively with a sagging defense.

I do agree not to go after SFs. I think the rockets can improve their play internally, here. Between Torres, Rice, Morris, and Mobley, one of them should be able to step up to the challenge to log minutes (~25) as the starter and between the four of them they should keep the PFs at the 4 and 5.

I do expect the rockets to keep all three PFs as I posted earlier, but I don't see it as a must as you do. I think it's always best to remain open to possibilities which you seem to oppose.

I am not that big on realgm, but since you mentioned it i guess you're refering to the Mihm thread which I'd do in a heartbeat, but don't see happening under too good to be true. I usually don't worry about matching salaries when I trade speculate, which I do less of now, because a good GM can find a way to get salaries to match with multiple teams.

In the average game, between Cato and Willis, I see them taking up 30 minutes at the center unless a true center or big PF is acquired. Mo and Griffin play 60 minutes. I don't see the PFs playing 19 minutes at the SF spot.

 

Dale Davis? As in 6'11'' 250 center for Portland that can't shoot outside 5 ft, and was traded for Jermaine O'Neal?

Anyhow, on KT those are the reasons he could be traded, but are also the exact same reasons he might not be traded.

13-8 type power forwards that'll make 1.5 mill next year are a valued commodity. People who have them usually don't want to trade them. People who don't have them, usually want them.

What's interesting about Kenny, is that his market will be large. Contenders lacking toughness inside could use him now (LA). Pretenders lacking big men would love to have a cheap 13-8 PF on their side.

Therefore, IMO the only way Kenny is moving is if an impact player is coming back.

We could definitely use a banger. We should be able to find them in the draft, probably with the Toronto pick. A Jamal Magloire type is usually available in the late teens.

 

Nice post by Crispee, among others. I don't want to get rid of KT either. To me, it comes down to whether KT will want to stay if he doesn't start. If we can find minutes for KT and he can live without the ego boost of being a starter and won't ask for a contract equal or greater to Mo Taylor's, I want to keep him a Rocket unless a deal comes along we can't pass up. I would love to have KT continue to be one of the first guys off the bench, and occasionally start, as he's been doing better and better since he was a rookie.

About Mo Taylor, do people really feel he has the lateral speed to adequately guard the perimeter against average SFs? That's not something I've picked up on, although he is good at drawing charges (not sure if that's related.) I'd feel even better about Griffin and Mo Taylor playing together if that's the case.

 

Relativist: That all depends on the SF. The smaller forwards might be quicker but not all are primary scoring options. The one's who are might need EG to guard them or they might need to be doubled like all good SF's (or SG's or PG's...).

What is key is can those same smaller guys guard MO??? If they have a mismatch in speed, we most certainly have it in size. It is all based on match-ups and those will change nightly.

 

I agree Jeff, but how many times did you see Taylor post up last yr? How many games when he played agsinst the brands, and rueben pattersons of the world didn he just shoot the jumper. It is about matchups which i agree, but if you have 2 jumpshooting power forwards and all they're doing is shootin 3's or 20ft's, its kind of like playing into the defenses hands.

It is also about mismatches, but if the guards don't pass the ball after the pick and roll mismatch, what good is that. I think they'll keep taylor and Thomas around for at least next yr, but Taylor or Thomas will be unhappy with the minutes and begin to b****. It plain to see that Griffin belongs on the court consistently , and he's one of our cornerstones so what happens when its time for his contract? At the rate he's going , he'll be a max guy. This debate will go on and on and get stronger the better Griffin progresses.

This situation is similar to what the Lakers went through with Kobe and Eddie. Eddie was a all star, but it was clear that even in his limted minutes, Kobe was going to be a great player while Eddie was just going to be good. I think you can say the same about Griffin vs either Taylor or Thomas. Neither Thomas or Taylor were on Jones level, but they are avg-better than avg players whereas Griffin has the growth curb of being elite. Its possible that Rudy might find a way to consitently be able to get them all on the floor and shots, but seeing that Cat jacks up 17,Steve 14, out of about 80 shots, its going to be a feat to say the least.

Maybe its a good problem to have, maybe not. Milw has Thomas on the bench because Glen can roll out of bed and get 20. Sac has it , but Turklou isn't as good as Peja or Christie. Portland hasn't gotten it so they consistently have struggled and will get worse when the trade Bonzi for someone good again. Sometime it can work and sometimes it don't, it just depends.

 

KT is NOT a max player. He's probably deserving of a contract similar to Mobley or maybe even Taylor, but he won't get $6 or $7 million per season.

lee: I think you are making assumptions about Griffin's game (2 power forwards that shoot the jumper) based on limited time. I don't honestly think the Rockets have even put significant time in with him on his post game. He is still so thin that he would have a pretty difficult time muscling any power forward. You saw how he got run over by Corliss Williamson.

Also, Taylor did post up using his jump hook on numerous occassions. Yes, he faces the basket most of the time, but so does KT. A lot depends on who they are facing. Hell, Karl Malone faces up at least half the time and he's the strongest PF in the league.

It seems that, because Griffin is so young, any assumption as to how or where he will play is WAY premature. Assuming there won't be enough minutes for everyone is also very premature. We probably should wait a year or two before we make value judgements. When and if the problems appear, we'll all know.

 

couldn't agree more Jeff.

leebee, while I don't disagree much on your player assessment, I think you simply are way too worried of people b****ing about PT or touches, and way too premature. Let's say the b****ing happens, which I doubt. That doesn't mean it will by rule lower their trade value much, since they are so young. And if they don't b****, then you have the makings of a powerful and versatile front court that can do a lot of freaky, creative things and mismatches while having the zone rules added in to lesson the disadvantages of mismatches.

Your argument seems only based on worst case scenario in players b****ing...*and* taking their trade value down with them.

I don't see how we can be afraid of players who might b****. And I don't see how we can be afraid of mismatches in a rotation that features Francis, Mobley, Kenny, Griffin and Mo' for 10 minutes a game. IMO, we win that combined mismatch against nearly everyone. That is one explosive situational rotation. Get Torres into the mix, and Moochie for 3 guards and you are pounding mismatches at people all game long.

screw our centers' PT and touches...they have to stop dropping passes, first.

As for worrying about touches, Mobley started the season stuck in the corner as we went to a Francis as primary playmaker, by comparison to last year. Mobley did not b****; in fact, it is absurd to say Mobley would b**** about anything...there just has been no b**** about him to date. Thomas did not b**** last year when we signed Mo'.

Further, both Thomas and Mo' were prepared to move to SF if we landed Webber. They both agreed to it.

bottomline, you don't just dangle Thomas and Mo' for anyone. Keep them and wait for a perfect offer. That would likely be the last trade we can make of any significance.

 

I think that MoT is going to start either at the end of this season or begining of the next season at PF and I think that EG will start at SF or other way around. Which leaves Glenn Rice and a good Kenny Thomas coming off the bench for the rockets.

 

Jeff:

do not be irked! you created us! you are our master! we are clutchcity clones who have nothing else to do because the economy sucks, we were all laid off, the economy is George Ws fault, even though he has been in office for 10 months and is cleaning up the Terrorist mess left by Bill, we have nothing else to do because Daschle says that W tore down what Clinton built, although I and many others lost all our money in Clinton's last year as President. It is all George's fault!!!

sorry I digress...anyway....this is part of the fun of your site...arm chair GMs making it up as we go...

actually, even being speculative...we sound pretty damn smart!

 

Thanks I think.

But, to be clear, this isn't MY site. This is Clutch's world. I'm just a squirrel tryin' to get a nut.

 

you created us meaning collectively you...the crew!!!!

it is ya'lls world and we just eat, sleep and post in it

 

Crispee, I know this thread is old and it seems i don't have anything to do, but if we would have landed Webber, do you really thhink we would have re-signed Taylor? Its like saying the Spurs were going to sign Webber and re-sign Robinson.

You're pretty accurate in assuming that I think worse casr scenario's because young players try to get the "juice" or establishment of themselves. Its hard for young players playing the same position to be totally in a team concept. The teams that have accepted that in the past have been very good, but thats few and far between.

Jeff, I agree about your assessment about Mailman shooting the spot up jumper, but the guy is 38 yr old! If you have them, which I doubt, count how many jumper's Mailman shot off the pick and roll. Pick and roll with stockton and Malone used to mean pick and foul for Karl. The guy would avg 12-13 ft's per game! I don't know how many pick and fades you can run to avg 12-13 ft's.

Evereyone know Griffin doesn't have the functional strength to post up all the time and the hope is he will gt better, but it will be one of the first times I've seen when a big man has developed his outside game before his inside game. Most times and maybe this is a extra ordinary case that a pf/c learns the strength backwards. Looking at all the pf's and centers in the league, they all went from dunkers / slashers/ limited post players - 15 ft consistent shooters. The same can be said for guards and forwards, but all of a sudden Griffin is going to be this low post threat for us? Really all it does is give him a excuse to shoot jumpers, which is the last thing we need.

Until the losses continue to mount,( which I hope don't happen) and or Mo Taylor comes back , this team will continue to be in that lower echelon of teams in the West. Jump shots look good and so do dunks, but it comes times in the regular season and playoffs when the j's won't fall and you have to get a good shot from within 10-15ft. This is one of the exact reason why Phoe, a Don Nelson coached team or T'Wolves can't make it into the conf finals. Griffin is the future, might as well start the progression now.