We could have done better, that's all. Should have shopped Gay right after the 5th pick. We were targeting Battier all along.
Oh I think Rudy could get better stats than Battier this year, if Memphis is committed to his development and plays him major minutes. Much like Charlie V last season, he can put up the numbers, any NBA player can put up numbers, well except Ryan Bowen, if given the opportunity. It's the role and the efficiency that count.
It's not all about numbers but they also mean a lot. Charlie V had a good rookie campaign and he was the 2nd or 3rd best rookie last year. Gay seems to even a better prospect coming out of Uconn. Battier is 10/5 and only scored above 20 points once in 2006 despite averaging 35 minutes a game.
No doubt Rudy Gay is a better prospect, although Charlie is much better offensively right now. Charlie got alot of his points through the benefit of playing from behind. Gay is on a better team and probably won't match Charlie because of Fratello's style. I actually like the fact that Battier tones down his scoring. You know most NBA 2/3 can score big numbers if they want, Battier knew his role last year and gave the spotlight to the big scorers on that team last year. I'd say he's going to do better this year simply because we need his scoring more than Memphis, who had capable scorers at the 1-4 positions.
Yeah, me too. At first it didn't make sense to me but the more I think about it today it makes more sense. First of all, the overwhelming majority of us were in favor of trading Luther along with the #8 pick for Brandon Roy. Roy was our man first and foremost. (You can be upset at Van Gundy for winnning a couple games and dropping us into the 8th slot where we had to make a trade, but don't be upset with CD for making the trade to give us our 3rd piece. It is not CD's fault that JVG went out there busting tail in meaningless games where the opponents had obviously already packed it in themselves.) So, when you think about it on those terms.....who would you rather have? Would you rather have Roy and Stromile....or would you rather have Shane Battier and Luther Head? Because we were going to lose Luther in the deal to get Roy, that's all there is to it. So, that is the way you have to view this trade. We obviously did not want Gay, Minnesota did not want Gay and Portland did not want Gay. That should tell you something right there. I don't know about you, but with the emphasis on the perimeter handchecks, and with Stromile making $5 mill and sitting on the bench doing nothing and with Luther still on a very good valued rookie contract, you can make a very good argument that we are better off with Battier and Luther then with Stro and Roy. If we had drafted Roy and he had turned out to be as good a player as Battier, I think we would all be quite happy. And for all you guys that all of a sudden changed your minds when Gay was still on the board at 8, realistically would he have been worth it if he wasn't going to come in here and play immediately? The reason we wanted Roy so bad was because he was ready to step in and play. Remember, he's got 2 years on Roy. So, if we could have drafted Gay and traded him for Roy, we would have done that deal, and most all of us that were Roy supporters to begin with would have seen the logic in swapping Gay and Head for Roy because of the immediate impact he brings on the floor. Granted we would have been upset about losing Luther but THAT WAS NOT CD's FAULT. IT IS VAN GUNDY'S FAULT THAT WE WERE GOING TO LOSE LUTHER THIS SUMMER BECAUSE HE WANTED TO WIN MEANINGLESS GAMES. So, it's easy for me to see why CD did this deal....in hindsight. I'm coming around to liking it...gulp. I did not want Gay or any other player on our team with that eighth that was going to ride the bench and play scrub minutes. We had to get a top 7 rotation player and that is what we did. And we got rid of a player that was not top 7 in the process and kept another player that was top 7. And on top of all that, we saved $5 mill per year of Les' money. And do you honestly think that if there were a better deal out there to be made, that it would not have been made? I think CD actually did pretty good when you look at the overall picture. We are not that far away guys. Take a look at our top 3 and compare to Dallas', San Antonio's, and Miami's top 3. Yao Dirk Duncan Shaq TMac Howard Manu Wade Battier Terry Parker Posey?? Walker??? Our top 3 are just as good if not better than any of those guys. Now, where we are lacking is starting at the 4-7 players. Our fourth best player is a pick 'em between Luther, Rafer, and Juwan. I'd take Luther myself as our 4th best player. And I think Howard is actually about the 11th best player on our team but apparently JVG thinks he is top 5, that's for sure. Dallas' fourth best player is probably Stackhouse, followed by Devin Harris and then you get down to their "role" players. San Antonio's 4th best is Bowen or Finley. So, we obviously need to improve in these areas. Of course, we are sitting on the MLE and a $4.2 TE to go along with a very tradable assett in Luther. We need to turn the corner on this trade though and accept it for what it is. It is the best we could given our team needs and it is a pretty good deal. If we cannot have Roy and Swift, then the next best thing to have is Battier and Luther, not Rudy Gay, Swift, and Luther, when both Gay and Swift are going to ride the bench and be bottom of the rotation players for us next year. If we weren't going to play Swift, and apparently we weren't, if he didn't fit, and apparently he didn't, then we need to lose his $5.4 mill and spend that money on a guy that is going to be our 3rd best player. You may think that is short term thinking but I don't really think it is. It is the necessary thinking. We want to compete and win multiple championships, not just one or two down the road. We've got a good7 to 8 years here to really put together good teams every year with a base of 111 and Battier. So, I think we are in good shape going forward. We got what we had to get out of this draft, a player that is going to play 30 quality minutes a night. And much more than that, we got the third best player on our team, not a bottom 6 rotation player who is going to ride the bench and maybe "develop" over the next 3 years. We are building to win now, not 4 years down the road. Memphis is building to be just good enough to keep squeezing into the playoffs and is hoping to hit a goldmine with players like Gay who can then push them to competing for a Conference championship or two and if they get lucky they can squeeze into the Finals once or twice. We are looking to compete for the Conference championship and win our fair share over the next 8 years and on top of that win multiple Finals.
Read how many of your posts criticizing the trade or this team actually detail why and go into analysis.
Cat: I totally agree with you about this being a good trade. I got all giddy with excitement when we drafted Gay because he is an athletic freak. The funny thing is tho, many people think making highlight worthy plays is synonymous with greatness. It's not. Greatness is synonymous with passion, competitiveness, and work ethic. That was the knock on Gay and why he fell despite his upside of athleticism. If a freak athlete doesn't have those things, how are they ever going to ever be more than just a highlight reel? That's right...they won't. In fact, that's all Stromile Swift is ever going to be unless he gets @$$ in there and really works hard and becomes committed (never gonna happen). I think Rockets staff was thinking the same exact thing with Gay. He had the chance to take over his team last year at UCONN, but it never happened. A true star, would be able to make a claim on "his" team and be a true leader, but he never did. I'm sure Gay will be a solid player, but it will really take some time for him to completely flourish. In the meantime, I'm glad that we didn't take a chance getting stuck with a player with minimal skills, but freakish talent and attitude problems ala Darius Miles. Also, a lot of people think that Jerry West is some basketball god that just knows a good talent when he sees it. True, he saw Kobe in the makings, but the truth is teams just weren't willing to take risks with high school players because they saw too much of a downside. Anybody can take a look at Rudy Gay's highlights and think "This guy is amazing!! How can anyone pass him up?!" The truth of the matter is West is really betting and hoping that his potential will be fulfilled and on Gay coming around as a player. Truth be told, Gay may never have the pasion to take his game to the next level. If we were to pick Gay and he were to be a total bust, we would be exactly where we were at the beginning. Also, the Grizzlies have a solid foundation. They are all young players and West can pretty much wait until he finds that one player that will take them to the next level. We have two of those types of players (we're lucky) in TMac and Yao. Right now, our job is to pull together the type of talented surrounding players that Memphis does with our super stars and then we're set for a run. Now that we have Battier, we know exactly where we're at. We bet on the sure thing and came out on top, instead of potentially crashing to the ground. We have a solid starting line-up... PG-Alston SG-TMac SF-Battier PF-Howard C-Yao However... I think our bench is actually pretty bad. The Heat have some great role players coming off the bench that are all really good defensive players. Payton and Mourning were on all defensive teams for multiple years in a row. Payton came in and made some timely baskets and steals because he is a crafty veteran. Alonzo despite his age and ailment, brought some timely defense, blocked some shots and grabbed some boards when Shaq needed to sit out. Also, Posey is really good on defense and hit some key 3pters (didn't he used to be one of our starters?). Our bench is Luther Head (he's gonna be good), Keith Bogans, Richie Frahm, Dikembe Mutombo (too old to contribute) and Chuck Hayes. I think we have one solid contributor off the bench. In order to be successful I really think we need somebody who can bring tenacity off the bench along the lines of Mike James. Although, I wouldn't pencil him in quite yet. We would be rather lucky to get him. The TE is going to be too cheap for him though. The guy just averaged 20 and 6 (4th best 3pt%). You really think we're going to be able to get somebody pulling in those kind of numbers for our TE? The Raptors are probably going to be building around James and Bosh for the time being. This offseason, it will be our goal to pull in a solid 6th man with our TE and then sign somebody for the minimum. Then and only then, might we be talking a strong playoff push. Here's to a great offseason!
Well, at least the Rockets would rather have Roy and Stro. Before Portland came in and ruined all this, the prefered deal for the Rockets was to take Foye and trade for Roy with Wolves - with Head or a future first. The rest is mute.
Beno Udrih is garbage, but that's beside the point. The Heat rotation included guys like Gary Payton and Shandon Anderson. They beat the Dallas team, who beat San Antonio, which are the teams where those players all came from. Depth is nice, but it's not necessary. If you have the right star players and the right role players around them, you can win championships with seven and eight man rotations. In fact, those are the teams that usually do. Trading 2 for 1 would hurt us deeply... if you gave up two rotation players. imo, even expecting Swift to be a 15 mpg rotation player on a championship team is a little too much. And yes, if McGrady had back problems the trade would be worse... but if that happens we're screwed anyway, even if we have Gay. That's why I'm generally ok with the trade. No, Battier isn't as good of a fit as Gay if McGrady gets hurt... but if McGrady gets hurt again this franchise is screwed anyway. What's the difference? I'd rather take my best shot at a championship, which to me is doing what I can to put the best team around a healthy McGrady and Yao Ming.
No, we are saving whatever contract a #8 would sign this year. We are paying Stro's 5 mil to Battier now. Although that really won't be saved because we will have to pick up another player to keep up our talent level. At the least they need to use the MLE and our bigger TE to make up for the talent and body loss.
Battier has a +8.5 plus minus ratio. Rudy Gay may at some point have better stats but he will never improve his team like Battier will improve ours. He couldn't even win the NCAA title with 4 first rounders on his team. Battier > Gay until Gay proves he can contribute to a winning team consistantly Battier >>> Swift - We had to trade salarys and there is no way we get Battier for Swift. So we had to give up an unknown with potential. Salary with Swift or Battier is the same but we now have a starter at a position of need and got rid of an overpriced underachiever all for the low low price of 1 #8 draft pick in a crappy draft year. There is not one player in this years draft that could have been a guaranteed playoff calliber starter at any position. We got one with the #8 pick. We now have much better focus on the areas of need for our team. If it turns out that we get Anthony Johnson out of this deal I think it is the Rockets that raped the Grizzlies. -okierock
Yes, there's a tremendous shortage of that. There's a difference in blanket criticisms and actual analysis.
Remember the UNLV team that was stacked that didn't win the NCAA title. Or how about the Michigan Fab Five team. It's very rare when the most talented team wins in college basketball. While some people question Gay's heart, I actually think that him fitting in is a testament to how he could easily be our third option and quickly. He's better than Villanueva coming and there were far more questions about Villanueva. Gay was the best player on one of the most talented teams in College Hoops. Uconn has produced very good to great NBA lottery picks. Shane Battier is a 10/5 hustle guy. We need a whole lot more than that.
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I can only speculate you can't read or not want to. There's plenty posts from Clutch, LB, and many other reputable posters on this board who laid that out. Bring your glasses.
Memphis needs someone like Gay to give them hope. It's pretty obvious that they are seriously in no man's land, stuck in a good division where they'll make the playoffs consistently but never make any noise. West needs to take a chance on a great player, no matter how small that chance may be. That's why they traded a solid player for a questionable one. Our bench is really bad right now and I don't know if we're going to get any help in the FA market. We can only hope that Luther Head improves significantly over his rookie season and Battier can play 45 mins at the 3. We're probably going to take a wait and see approach the 1st half of the season, then make any moves after determining the health of our stars and the progress of the younger players. This is right in line with the moneyball philosophy so I hope they stick to it.
