I consider this statement very naive, especially from a notorious Rudy basher who constantly says we need more ball movement. Hey man, if Francis cannot penetrate and dish, or run a fastbreak better than he has shown me in the past two years, we are limited in our offensive system....especially with the zone rule. He can do it, if he practices it and really wants to pass first (like his quotes in your article state that), and if he really doesn't want to be on the wing for a fastbreak. But make no mistake, your simplicity of describing him as "just a guard" eliminates several offensive system in existence. If Rudy wants a system that requires a penetrating guard with extraordinary passing instincts like Nash, Francis is not it, and we would just be beating our heads against the wall. So tell me ZRB, describe the guard if greating detail, what you want Francis to be. Or don't offer up your crap. And if you really want a tangent, if you agree with with me that if Francis does not improve our fastbreak, develop a goto move for last second possessions, or improve he interior passing like is Role Model "Isiah", do you trade him for top value after 3 years. Consider for a second that a PG is easier to come by than a PF or C.
geeze you are such a homey. I'm not comparing him to Nash. I am ONLY comparing him to Nashes interior passing. Francis is nowhere close to Nash in that regard. My point is to state he has great skills--jumping and midrange game. He is mediocre in interior passing, fastbreak, dribbling, height, and goto move. Those are my points. These are facts in my mind after watcing 150 games of the Franchise. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 11, 2001).]
What was Hakeems go to move in his second year? He did not develope the Dream shake until later. Give Francis time. He has shown enough and contributed enough in my book to be allowed more time to continue growing. But that is just my oppionion. ------------------
Oh, that is such crap. Just ask Magic Johnson when Hakeen destroyed Magic, Worthy, Scott and Jabbar in the height of their superiority, the 85-86' season playoffs....Hakeem's second year. Magic is quoted as saying, "We were unprepared. We had no idea he was that good."
HeyP, How can you call a quick first step a "go to move"? That is like saying jumping is a "go to move." A quick first step can be used to start any number of actual, defined "moves" and I don't see Cat as having any real "go to moves" either. I like both of the guys, but it does sound as if you are being overly hard on Francis. How can you truly tell if he knows his weaknesses or not simply because he does not mention them in press conferences and interviews? Do you seriously think that Rudy does not go over his weaknesses with him? Francis has demonstrated his desire to improve his game, and if Rudy helps guide him to the areas that need the most work (hell, it is his job), then Steve will eventually improve them. Of this, I am completely confident. ------------------ Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
I do believe they have a go to move, considering how much taller or faster they are versus their defender. Bryant, Carter, McGrady and Francis all have roughly equal turnaround Js. Francis has very much impressed me with this. But damn, he is a short shooting guard trying to make that shot, and Payton has pretty much proven, we don't want to be running that offense with Francis. Francis is 4-6 inches shorter than the other leaping superstars in the league. He cannot try to be them. He talks about Isiah, but he doesn't look anything like him.
A quick first step blow-by is the epitome of a go to move in its most simplicity. That move is what sets up everything else, by forcing the defender to back off. You do not have to be a guard to have a quick first step. It is relative to your defender. Otherwise, I agree with you on all counts.
I am not saying Dream was not good, hell he was great. What I am asking you is what was his go to move. I saw every game of that series and I don't remember one perticular go to move. Do you? ------------------
The fadeaway. Particularly following a spin-move. ------------------ "You don't do that! You must always give the Dream back his change!" The Rockets will be NBA champions. Believe.
Do I remember his go to move?????????? simplicity, man.... the turnaround J on the baseline. I define go to moves as unblockable shots that you can hit at a high percentage, even against a double team. Taking it to the rim is not a requirement, just ask Jabbar.
I don't remember Dream shooting many fade aways in that series. Most of his shots seemed to be going to the basket. Most of them seemed to be invented at the time according to what his need was at the time, but one move certainly does not stick out in my mind. ------------------
Jabbars definable go to move has always been his sky hook. Dream did not bring the fade away shot that he eventually transformed into the Dream shake from college. It was something developed. His shot was not exactly world class outside of the paint his first few years in the league. But if you want to talk about shots that were hard to block that he made a high percentage of the time then we are not just talking about one shot. Dreams hieght and athleticism made all of his shots deadly. When I think of go to moves I think of the Dream Shake. That is something that we saw Dream do to Robinson and so many others time and time again during his prime and even now. That shot is deadly and unstobable from way out. I just think that it is rare for anyone to come into the league with a definable go to shot. It is something that is developed over time. Jabbar was one of those rare people that had it when he came from college. I don't think Francis is any kind of old made, he can still develope one. But if he does not I still see him beeing a great player. Maybe not superstar (and that would be a dissapointment) but still great. ------------------ [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited May 11, 2001).] [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited May 11, 2001).] [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited May 11, 2001).]
If Dream's fadeaway did not beat the Laker's, tell me what did. And before we get too far off topic here, in my earlier posts I said that a PG does not need a go to move. They just need superior midrange games with superior interior passing, and they can fit almost any system, even with zone. Francis is not showing the superior Isiah-esque interior passing, nor does he have superior height like Magic, McGrady, Kobe, Carter. That is why I think he is schizonphrenic, in between being a pg without superior passing/fastbreak skills and a small shooting guard with superior height/jumping/speed vs the defender. I am saying Francis has a good turnaround J, and excellent midrange, but without the 6-8" height, he needs something else....that is passing like Isiah and Nash.
Dream had some of everything going in that series but it wasn't just Hakeem. Sampsom played a pretty big role in that series as well. I wish I could see the box scores because it seems like Dream had the better games at home and Sampson had the better games on the road but damn its hard to remember that far back. I do know that the defense that both Sampson and Dream played against Kareem was the key to the win. I even had a poster of Dream and Sampson together blocking a shot from Kareem in that series. Dream was our best player in that series but he certainly was not the one man show that he was later in his career. Back to Francis. I don't mind you critisizing Franchise but it seems that you have a very real dislike for him and some of your remarks seem to border on bashing. I am a Rockets homer so its possible that I am just hyper sensitive to the subject of Francis but I don't know how anyone can just assume that someone will not continue to grow and develope after his second year. ------------------
All I want from Francis is 4 more ppg and 2 more apg. He will get those if he takes a few more of those open shots he often passes up, and if his teammates start consistently hitting those wide-open shots Francis often creates for them. Heypartner, if I am a Rudy-basher, then you are most certainly a Francis-basher. ------------------ The Protrolls.com message boards! Protrolls.com! Don't visit my site.
Kobe's got a deadly turnaround fadeaway that's improving. He stole it from Jordan. Payton used to back opposing PG's in and follow with a turnaround layup off the glass. It was damn near unstoppable because he had the strength to post players up. Mark Jackson had a similar move as did Barkley (but of course he wasn't a guard). I haven't watched McGrady or Payton enough to know. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
Oh geez crash, you may have lost some credibility with this one. Dream had 2 moves that were just about automatic unless he wanted to miss it. One was a move he faded away towards the baseline sometimes ending up behind the backboard before launching the shot. The other was the Dream Shake which by itself may not be a "go to" move but used to set up his turnaround J. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
Is Baron really arrogant ? Didn't he score 4 points the other night ? Maybe that wil humble him. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
francis might not have a go to move. he still gets the job done and outplays 3/4 of the PGs nightly. HeyP not to criticize but francis hasnt played PG that long.. 2 years.. he started playin organized bball later... so give him time b4 u like say he wont and will never have great passing instincts. for being so raw at his position he's learnin them quite nicely. and in some ways i do agree w/ ZRB n i think francis is sort of a combo guard ... half n half actually. depends on waht Rudy T needs that night. ------------------ --TEX [This message has been edited by TeXaSalsa (edited May 12, 2001).]
