"I killed 2 Americans...Now I just want to kill more and more."

Right, you just walk around in a fog of misinformation and uneducation. (see below)

I see, so what do you call the plan that is currently in place? This plan is to allow the UN envoy, Lakdhar Brahimini, to choose the successor government in Iraq.

The fact that Bush has handed things over to Brahimini has been public knowledge for months. You should read up on such things before making overarching pronouncements on them.

 

Exactly who are "they"? All Iraqis? Or the former Bathist/Saddam loyalists? Or the foreigners that have come over the boarder because they think they are fighting for Islam?

Certainly some people want us to leave. Of course the ironic thing is that if they would just stop fighting, the US would leave faster. The more resistance they put up the longer the U.S. has to stay to ensure some kind of stability.

"They" don't just want us to leave, "they" want to control Iraq. "They" don't want a democratic government because it would mean "they" didn't get the perks they got when Sadam was in power.

My guess is that most Iraqis simply want to pick their leaders. They want running water and electricity. They want to be able to send their kids to school safely and earn enough money to go on vacation occasionlly. The quicker things settle down in Iraq the quicker Iraqis will get all those things.

 

Sorry, but there were plenty of Iraqis that would love to kill Americans before 9/11. The Bathists and Saddam loyalists openly preached hate against America. Average Iraqis on the street didn't hate America per se and I still don't think that, in general, they do. But to act as if Iraq was a friendly nation to the U.S. before this invasion is silly.

 

"They" are the 60-80% of the population that want us to get the hell out...and this was before the April rebellion and the prison scandal.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

Not friendly, but not dangerous.

To act like nations like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are friendly to the US, which we still do, is not only silly, but has gotten, and will get people killed.

 

They may have expressed that desire, but they didn't act on it. 9/11 had zero Iraqis involved. Of course Saddam and his loyalists hated the U.S. but they didn't, wouldn't, and couldn't have carried out anything. That is no longer the case.

 

There are some who want to do bad things, and some that are smart enough to try and keep a low profile now while planning their activities.

Others probably believe that they are fighting a just fight and don't see the need to lay back and keep a low profile. They want to bring as much attention to their cause as possible.

 

Of course, the poll also indicates that "most continue to say the hardships suffered to depose Saddam Hussein were worth it. Half say they and their families are better off than they were under Saddam. And a strong majority say they are more free to worship and to speak"

Look. NO ONE wants our troops there for an extended period of time. The Iraqis who are glad we took Saddam out don't want them there and the people who are for the war don't want them there. The problem is that until stability is brought to the country they are kind of stuck there.

As I mentioned before, the ironic thing is that if the main goal of those people causing problems is the get the U.S. out, their actions are having the opposite effect. My conclusion is that they really aren't fighting for a free Iraq, they are fighting for an Iraq like it was before - a dictatorship where they (the insurgents) are the privileged few. While most Iraqis want the U.S. out (who can blame them? Who wants to be occupied?), most probably want a stable, democratic government that allows the people to live their lives the way they want. Unfortunatly, a few bad apples are spoiling the party for everyone.

The thing that probably ruined out chance to win was the pictures. And those pictures don't just make Bush look bad, they make all Americans look bad.

I don't subscribe to the idea that Iraq had any direct association with 9/11, however, I do think that a stable and democratic Iraq would help reduce terrorism in the long run simply because middle-class people are less likely to want to kill themselves over extreme beliefs.

 

That raises an interesting point though. A problem with the "terrorists are just pissed off poor arabs" approach is that a lot of the 9-11 terrorists, particularly the masterminds came from what appeared to be middle class backgrounds. Example, Mohammed Atta was the son of a Cairo doctor.

http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/sept11/attacks/thehijackers.html

It raises interesting questions on the root causes of terrorism.

 

I wouldn't neccesarily say it is clear they want us to leave. I think in general, the Iraqi people want a government installed with guards so they could feel safe. All these anti-american acts are being done by Sadaam's people, those that kept him in power and worshipped him. Of course though, when showing Iraq the media only concentrates on these people and not on other people who are glad to have Americans there.

Imagine that sniper we had a two years ago, but imagine them spread all throughout the country. Those two men caused a lot of havoc and media attention between the two of them. What if there was several across the country and the media just focused in on those people? Would it be safe to assume that black people in general are dangerous and want to kill Americans?

 

Uh...in the most recent poll, beofre the POW scandal, when asked if they wanted the US to leave immediately, over 80% said yes. I would say that necessarily means they want us to leave.

 

Sam, I don't think that terrorists are "just pissed off poor arabs". However, I do think that it's easier to recruit suicide bombers and build your ranks from poor people with no future. Especially when you can blame their situation on someone else.

Terrorist leaders, on the other hand, could be poor. Or they could also simply megalomaniacs using a particular cause to build their own power base. Do you really think Arifat cares about poor Palistinians?

 

The Shias attacking us were persecuted by Saddam. I believe Saddam killed Sadr's father. Opposition to U.S. occupation is much broader than former Saddam loyalists.

 

Don't ever tell me the POW 'scandal' is not political in nature. This confirms my opinion of the liberals' treatment of it.

 

Sam, I don't think that terrorists are "just pissed off poor arabs". However, I do think that it's easier to recruit suicide bombers and build your ranks from poor people with no future. Especially when you can blame their situation on someone else.


Exactly - the 9/11 terrorists are not your "average terrorist". They were picked for that mission for their intelligence, fanaticism, ability to integrate into American society, etc. That is a very different breed of terrorist than the base that makes the whole system work.

 

I guess I tend to believe someone who actually lives there before a media poll.. silly me - Polls are 100% accurate.

 

i was talking about people in general

 

Still don't think it is anywhere near a million, but I could be wrong.

 

What?

I was being logical; ie logically, if over 80% of Iraqis wanted the US out BEFORE the POW scandal, it maes sense to assume that even more want us out now. WHat the hell does a logical statement like that have to do with poliical exploitation?

T_J, people on both sides have expressed similar opinions about the atrocity,as has the vast majority of the planet. It would not take an anti-Nazi or a socialist to oppose the Holocaust. Some things oppose basic human decency, and if the 'take' on those kinds of actions is similar in nature to the desired 'take' on any action would be from your political opponent's point of view, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Additionally, those who are in the extreme minority obout the POW situation are those whose motives for so doing should be examined.