Nighthawk- I am sorry, but you are insane if you really believe that the Mavs rosters around Dirk have been less talented than the Minny rosters around KG. Not even close.
While I fully agree that KG is not on Duncan’s level (Duncan is better in the blocks on both ends of the court), it’s laughable to try to say he played with quality help while in MN. It’s even funnier to say Duncan and Dirk’s teams had similar surrounding talent. When Dirk first got to Dallas Finley and Nash were the leaders of the team. Those two, in their Dallas days, are better than any teammate KG had during his entire tenure in MN, except for possibly Cassell (old by then) and Sprewell…and you see how far KG advanced when he finally got those two. Before he got old Finley was a stud. Before he left for Phoenix Nash, while not at a MVP level, was still a stud. I don’t think anyone would take Wally Z (the only other quality T-Pup) over Stackhouse. Stackhouse only came off the pine because the Mavs had so much other talent at the wing spots…it’s not because he was garbage. Josh Howard for the past few seasons is better than all of those players as well. I would take Harris over all of their PG’s…Jason Terry too (who is very clutch, unlike soft ass Dirk). Have you ever seen KG fold like Dirk folded against us when he was being held by Ryan Bowen? Have you ever seen KG disappear like Dirk did in the Finals? Has KG ever been as passive as Dirk was in last year’s loss to the Warriors? Dirk is the epitome of a superstar on a team with enough talent to carry him. His situation has been nothing like KG’s. On to Duncan….has the man ever played on a bad team? He got drafted to a veteran ball-club with another HOF’er next to him to show him the ropes. His team never had a downfall because quality ring chasing free agents were always interested in playing there due to the great front office and coaching (i.e. Kerr, Smith, Horry, Finley, Stoudamire probably, etc). The team has never gone through a rebuilding phase because they hit late with the Manu and Parker picks. I’m not sure if KG would have 4 titles like Timmy because he isn’t really a low-post player, but his run with Sam/Sprewell and this season shows me that he can have success if he has surrounding talent. That makes him like every other man on a title winning for the past 3 decades besides Hakeem…. Nighthawk If you really believe that Hudson = Nash, or that Wally = Howard, Finley, Stackhouse, Jamison (pick one) then go sell some of what you are on because you can be the next Frank Lucas!!!!! And most importantly, what teams bumped KG out of the playoffs that he was supposed to beat? His situation is similar to T-Macs, where you could really only argue that he wasn’t an underdog in one series (Jazz), if that….
My God you are uninformed Dirk has been one of the best playoff performers in the entire NBA for a number of years. There are only a couple of players that have been better...i can list them on one hand ( Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Nash....thats about it) Dirk is a guy that wins playoff series. Kevin Garnett is a guy that has people make excuses for his repeated failures. Kevin Garnett has never come close to being the playoff performer that Dirk is. He has never beaten Dirk or the Mavericks in the playoffs. He has never beaten the Spurs. He hasn't beaten the Suns. He hasn't won the Western Conference..... and I sure as hell have never seen him score 50 points in a game 5 of Western Conference Finals. I do know this....after the Celtics fail to win it all...he will have a legion of followers like yourself just continuing to make excuses on why he isn't a winner. These are Dirks playoff averages. These are surely the stats of of someone that doesn't show up in the playoffs. He has had two bad playoff series which came against Houston and the warriors. The rest of the series he's been an asbolute monster. His best series came in 2002 where he made Kevin Garnett his b*tch by averaging over 30 points and 15 rebounds. 2001 23.4ppg 8.1 rpg 2002 28.4 ppg 13 rebounds 2003 25.3 ppg 11 rpg 2004 26.6ppg 11.8 rpg 2005 23.7ppg 10.1 rpg 2006 27 ppg 11.7 2007 19.7 ppg 11.3
Are you guys smoking crack???????? Some of you amaze me. Kobe was just as responsible for winning three rings as was Shaq. Shaq has never won a championship without Dwanye Wade or Kobe Bryant. You guys continue to act like the Timberwolves were this horrible team devoide of talent and its just not true. Here is their year by year record. 1997-98 45-37 Lost in the 1st round 1999-00 50-32 Lost in the 1st round 2000-01 47-35 Lost in the 1st round 2001-02 50-32 Lost in the 1st round 2002-03 51-31 Lost in the 1st round 2003-04 58-24 Lost in 3rd round 2004-05 44-38 Missed playoffs 2005-06 33-49 missed playoffs 2006-07 32-50 You put Tim Duncan, Dirk or Shaq on any of those Timberwolve teams and I promise you they do better than making it out of the first round once. Those players would also be good enough to have the Wolves in the playoffs the last few years and not completley irrelevant.
Yeah Dirk is a very non clutch player. As I said in the other thread....I would give my left nut for Tracy or Yao to be be half as clutch as Dirk. I would love for any of you to find a bunch of clips of Kevin Garnett winning playoff games with clutch plays in the 4th quarter , or of him scoring 50 points in a crucial playoff game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQWX4SFMM5c http://youtube.com/watch?v=VsezSLdYcik&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo http://youtube.com/watch?v=cLxOz1YbZC4&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=i3ZNoeCTP-4&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=pDBsKXCIdiY&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=sX1bUoMOs9k&feature=related
^ apparently he's missing the point. once again...dirk has been on better teams! and this isnt about whos better. Although, I personally think the mavs would have done better with KG in their lineup than dirk.
I am really tempted to block out Nighthawk. Who is this rookie spitting out this trash? Lets look at the overall picture. It is pretty much a given fact that overall Dirk and Duncan has been surrounded with better talent, coaches, organization than KG in Minny. If you are actually arguing against this one, I really don't know what to say to you man. If the media is so in love with KG and if he actually had so much talent surrounding him, the Twolves would be projected pretty high every season. I don't even want to continue with this because I feel like I'd be arguing with a kid (the fact you just ramble off names without thinking what point of their career they were at in Minny just shows how biased you are). Also...I am surprised no one mentioned how no one commented how Matchman says that KG is classless (and now the debate went to how horrible of a player he is...) but he can respect Kobe. We are talking about the Kobe that was on trial for rape right? The Kobe that gave an elbow to Mike Miller, Raja Bell, and smacked Manu in the face? I just want to make sure what "classless meant" on and off the court.
So does this mean you won’t answer my question, about naming a time when KG played so poorly in a playoff series, similar to: - Dirk against us in 05 - Dirk in the Finals in 06 - Dirk in the Warriors series last year In 05, while Dirk was being controlled by Bowen and T-Mac, the Mavs were saved by Finley, Stackhouse and most importantly Jason Terry. Do you not recall that series? Did you watch it, or can you only look at the stat sheet and assume he played well? Did you watch the last 4 games of the 06 Finals? Do you not recall all the heat Dirk took that summer for being passive and nutting up…since you mention how 2-0 leads should not be blown. Do you not recall him staying out of the lane for the remainder of the series, after Shaq caught him with an elbow? That series was a perfect display of how one star can carry a team, while the other one folds. Did you watch the Mavs/Warriors series last year? You know, the one where Dirk’s coach basically said he needed to stop being a biznitch!! The series where Howard, Stack and Harris tried their best to keep Dallas in games while Dirk was acting like he didn’t even want to shoot the ball…save for the last minute of one of the games. Do you not recall these events? Again I ask, when has KG looked that bad in the playoffs? You pointing out playoff records means nothing when I am arguing that he was advancing due to having help. Not to say he didn’t ball because he did, but Dirk is clearly not the guy you want to use as an example of a player leading or getting it done with limited help. He has always been on a good team. And aside from Karla Malone, he has more episodes of nutupitis than any other superstar. He accepted the MVP at a press conference for God’s sake….
Obviously you are a huge Mavs fan...your fandom is totally blinding you if you say Dirk is at a level above KG I lived in Dallas for two years (moved back to Houston in June/2007) and Dirk was ALWAYS criticized there for shrinking in big playoff games. This is by people who LOVE the mavs EDIT: And I like Dirk and think he is a great player, but I think KG has had one season of playing with real talent and Dirk has had many. Just look at the rosters Also, the two seasons before KG actually got help from Sam/Spree, here were his playoff #'s 24 ppg 18.7 rpg 5.0 apg 27ppg 15.7 rpg 5.2apg But it was his fault
Compare the rosters. It's laughable. Regardless of how many All-Star selections were on the teams, just compare Duncan and Dirk's teammates and coaches to KG's. It's ridiculous
Yeah buddy.....Dirk played absolutely horrible in the 2006 Finals. The only reason the Finals stood out was that he had been the best player in the entire 2006 Playoffs and got outplayed by Dwayne Wade. He had two subpar games in the Finals, and the mavs won game 1. Im going to repeat myself. Dirk has had two bad playoff series his entire career. Against Houston (which the refs and Mavs won) and against Golden St. Game 1 4-14 16 points 10 rebounds Game 2 8-16 26 points 16 rebounds Game 3 9-20 30 points 7 rebounds Game 4 2-14 16 points 9 rebounds. Game 5 8-19 20 points 9 rebounds Game 6 10-22 29 points 15 rebounds IceHouse, I would like you to point out the playoff series that KG has put his team on his back and led his team to victory. I still love how none of you have responded to the fact that Dirk and Kevin Garnett actually faced each other head to head in the playoffs. the Mavs were the 4 seed and the Wolves were the 5 seed, both were 50 win teams. T This wasn't some 1-8 or 2-7 matchup. These were two evenly matched teams. Dirk proceeded to absolutely own Kevin Garnett and score on him at will and lead his team to a sweep of the Wolves.
The same playoff series where Garnett averaged 24 and grabbed 18.7 boards with 5 assists? Yeah, put that one on KG Yeah it was 4 vs 5, but Dallas won 7 more games that year as well and had Dirk/Nash/Finley Mavs won 57 games Wolves won 50 games Not that even, Mavs homer
Ah! So this is really a "I hate KG but love Dirk/Mavs" Thread in disguise. Common man put your personal feelings aside and see how pointless of an argument you have. KG is not over rated and is a solid NBA player who is statistically comparable to Dirk, Duncan, Dwight Howard, Stoudamire etc. His lack of playoff success can't be blamed all on him. Just like it can't be blamed on Tracy.
So, for the third time, are you going to continue to ignore my question or show me some playoff series where KG played that poorly? I highlighted those series because they clerly show the benefit of havign quality teammates, especially the series against us in 05.
I guess i don't like him, but he is one of the best players. Jefferson is pretty good though and i wanted them to win that game. I don't think Garnett will win a championships ever.
Icehouse, Sorry for being a few days late with this, but hopefully I have answered your question. Dirk has played two bad series (against the Rockets and GoldenState), and against Golden State had his lowest scoring output at 19.7 ppg. You wanted some series were Kevin Garnett was worse than Dirk........... Below I have higlighted three different playoff series were Kevin Garnett was a non factor. Kevin Garnett in the 2000 Playoffs against the Portland Trailblazers. Game 1 6-20 12 points 10 rebounds (Timberwolves Lose) Game 2 8-16 23 points 10 rebounds (Timberwolves Lose) Game 3 11-22 23 points 10 rebounds (timberwolves win) Game 4 5-20 17 points 10 rebounds (Timberwolves lose Series average: 18.8 PPg and 10.8 rebounds pergame. Kevin Garnett in the 1998 Playoffs against the Seattle Supersonics Game 1 8-18 18 points 18 rebounds (Timberwolves lose) Game 2 7-14 15 points 8 rebounds (Timberwolves win) Game 3 9-18 19 points 8 rebounds (Timberwolves win) Game 4 9-14 20 points 10 rebounds (Timberwolves lose) Game 5 3-11 7 points 4 rebounds (Timberwolves lose) Series average: 15.8 ppg and 7.8 rpg Kevin Garnett in the 1997 Playoffs against the Houston Rockets Game 1 10-21 21 points 9 rebounds (Timberwolves lose) Game 2 7-14 14 points 7 rebounds (Timberwolves lose) Game 3 7-16 17 points 7 rebounds (Timberwolves lose) Series Average: 17.3 ppg 9.6 rpg
Dirk has had two bad playoff series and one relatively mediocre. He was bad against the Rockets in 2005 and Golden State in 2007. He was okay in the Finals against Miami. Every other series hes been in (which is a lot more than Garnett) hes been a monster. lets examine these and compare them to Kevin Garnetts series above. Dirk Nowitski in the 2005 Playoffs against the Houston Rockets Game 1 5-19 21 points 7 rebounds Mavericks Lose Game 2 8-21 26 points 2 rebounds Mavericks Lose Game 3 9-16 28 points 6 rebounds Mavericks Win Game 4 4-14 18 points 7 rebounds Mavericks win Game 5 9-22 23 points 13 rebounds Mavericks Win Game 6 5-22 19 points 13 rebounds Mavericks lose Game 7 5-14 14 points 14 rebounds Mavericks Win Series Average 21.2 ppg 8.86 rpg Dirk was not good in this series, but are you going to sit here and tell me that this is worse than any of the three KG series I listed above. Especially since the mavs won the series. Dirk Nowitski in the 2007 NBA playoffs against the Golden State Warriors Game 1 4-16 14 points 12 rebounds Mavericks Lose Game 2 7-15 23 points 7 rebunds Mavericks Lose Game 3 7-16 20 points 12 rebounds Mavericks Lose Game 4 9-19 23 points 15 rebounds Mavericks Lose Game 5 7-15 30 points 12 rebounds Mavericks win Game 6 2-13 8 points 10 rebounds Mavs Lose Series Average: 19.7 ppg 11.3 rpg. These are the only two bad series that Dirk has had......and they are both better than than the three Kevin Garnett series I listed above. Blake, Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming and the rest of the Rockets were in the exact same scenario yet they took the Mavs to 7 games and for most of the series looked like the better team. The mavs had won 7 more games than the Rockets and were the 4 seed and the Rockets were the 5 seed. Your directly proving my point. kevin Garnett had the chance to lead his team to victory in an evenly matched 4/5 matchup. Instead....he lets Dirk average 30-15 and the Mavs sweep the series.
I know some of you guys act like White players can't play basketball but Wally Scerbiack made the 2002 All Star team over Michael Finley. You all keep acting like the guy sucked and its just not true The Timberwolves had a threesome of Kevin Garnett/Scerbiack/Chuancey Billups KG and Scerbiack were both All Stars in 2002. Are you guys telling me Chauncey Billups isnt a good player? These were two evenly matched teams and Dirk was only in his 4th year in the league. Dirk just destroyed Kevin Garnett every single game. Here are Dirks stats against KG and the wolves Game 1 10-19 30 points 15 rebounds Mavericks Win Game 2 9-21 31 points 15 rebounds Mavericks Win Game 3 11-17 39 points 17 rebounds Mavericks Win Series average: 33.3 ppg 15.6 rpg Icehouse....you gave me a challenge and I have one for you. Can you find me a playoff series were Kevin Garnett averaged 30 and 15 and led his team to victory?
