LA- Let me get this straight. You want to trade #1 and EG for Odom and #8. I would not do Odom and #8 for Griffin. Are you a Clippers fan? You have to be!
MManual- Sooooo. You think we will be soft if we draft Ming. Question for you. Will we still be soft with Odom? You are saying Cato is not soft? Can Odom bring anything that Yao cannot? Odom can dribble. So what! Yao will rebound and pass the ball to streaking guards. Fast breaks work better with a center rebounding not a guard.(As is the case with the Rockets now) Ming=Championships Odom=Show Drive for show. Putt for dough.
Yeah, that whole Scottie Pippen "point forward" think worked pretty good for the Rockets before, huh? I think the whole notion of "point forward" is stupid. Odom gets about 5 assists a game and about 3.5 turnovers. He's a small forward who like to make fancy passes, primarily because he can't shoot very well. He definitely has talent but if you think 5 assists and 3.5 turnovers makes him a good playmaker you might need to rethink your position. Hell, Steve Francis, who everybody complains about for not having the right decision making and playmaking ability has a better assist to turnover ratio than Odom. So, if I'd rather have Steve handling the ball anyway, and Odom is only going to make our terrible outside shooting even worse, and not improve our defense in any significant way, why do we want him again? Not to mention all the immaturity, carelessness, and lack of professionalism he's displayed in his short three year career.
I would take the first deal and get Odom for the sf position. Yao Ming has great skills but he may have some problems with his knees for a guy his size. Odom have shown to become a nice player in the league so why not take him when you can. Yao has not proven NBA skills so this is an oppurtunity the Rockets should take.
Man, you cannot convince Ming-lovers to oppose him, or Ming-haters to support him. "MING IS THE SECOND BEST CENTER IN THE GAME ALREADY. " Haha, very funny. He is ALREADY the 2nd best center and he hasn't played a single NBA game, yet an 82 game season which is significantly longer than 24games against scrubs. Yeah and JWill is better than ever PG except Kidd ALREADY... --bigboymumu--I am still not sold on Ming being a physical inside presence on offense or defense... I'm not saying Odom is going to remedy this or that we should even get him, but people are going a little crazy with things like Ming=Championship I guess it's good to see positivity, I'm glad to see most people are excited, so much hope, so much promise, but there is so much overreaction If Yao's a bust(which is on different levels for different people), I want to see what you all say. You all will be very patient and defend him for a season, but how much longer after that? Some of you all say Yao will stop Shaq, Yao will be the best center, Yao will be the 2nd best center, Yao will be like Rik Smits... Anyways, I hope the Rockets make the best decision, but I'm not sure if they will
Nice Joke! Hey, Joe Smith was a #1 pick, why don't we trade the #1 pick for him? And Smith wasn't even one of those number-four-picks-who-could-have-been-number-ones, he was a true #1 pick...that's even better!!! Let's do it! Griffin and #1 for Joe Smith! And I understand the enormous trade value of a player who's been caught smoking weed twice in two years and who just missed nearly a whole season due to injuries. And I also understand the fact that a team full of lottery players who are going to be asking for huge contracts year after year gives the Clippers a huge bargaining chip when dealing with other teams. The Clippers definitely are in no way just trying to get rid of Odom. But come on! Don't you think that's a bit much?
I think that was mainly meant as a comment about the poor state of the center position. Can you name the current 2nd best center in the NBA? Who'd you come up with? Divac? Mutombo? Mourning? Mutombo has no basketball skills? Mourning is very much on the downside of his career? I guess that leaves Vlade and his stats. 11.1 points per game 8.4 rebounds per game 1.18 blocks per game. Yep, its definitely a long shot that Ming will be able to put up those kind of numbers.
mumu- MManal mentioned Nene Hilario, who is viewed as extremely athletic, physical, and a banger. Nothing of this Cato. It doesn't come down to Odom vs. Ming, don't twist it into that. Fast breaks work better with a rebounding center? Did you ever watch New Jersey? Their starting PF/C averaged 5.3 and 6.1 rebounds, Kidd averaged 7.3 rebounds. KT/Cato averaged ~7 boards a piece, both more than NJ. Our fast break sucks because we have no one who runs it. Francis prefers the wing, and goes to the wing like a magnet. Odom is one of very few non-PGs that can lead a break. DC-Turn the page. Saying Odom won't work at SF because of a Pippen comparison, is like saying Francis will be a one dimensional shooter using a Maloney comparison. In my best Pitino impression, Hakeem and Barkley aren't walking through that door. If they did they'd be old and well...fat. If all you care about are comparisons, go look at Odom's first 3 years, vs. Pippen's first 3 years, and factor in Odom was 3 years younger than Pip when he came in to the league. That's not to say Odom will achieve Pippen-like levels (though he could potentially), but Odom is a special player in this league, and has already shown it. I think we'd have the ability to win a championship either way, and either it depends on player(s) panning out. If you opt for Ming, you must hope that both he and EG attain some degree of toughness and won't let the premier big men in the league just punish them for position, and that the team can grow as a cohesive unit. If you opt for Odom+pick(s) (assume for this sake it's Hilario), you must hope Odom doesn't have offcourt issues that jeopardize his play with the team, and that Hilario doesn't bust, and becomes a solid rebounder/defender with some offensive skills. Honestly, there's very few ways the Rockets could screw up in this draft. VERY few.
Neither did the Clippers. 3 years later, he's on the trading block. Here is the fundamental question: Has he answered his critics? At 19, youre skipping school, skipping appointments, making commitments you can not keep. At 22 youre busted for drug abuse and suspended twice. What's going to happen at 24, 25. What happens when he wants the max contract. Will the Rockets give it to him? Based on talent he's a sure bet. What about the intangibles. This is one of the most immature players in the NBA (and that's saying A lot). Lamar odom getting the max contract a few years from now could be the biggest gamble the Rockets could face. And frankly, that scares the crap out of the Clippers. Wake up. There's a reason they're not shopping Darius Miles. People who are anti-Ming have the same tactics over and over again: He's too much of a risk. And therefore we should get XYZ. Guess what, XYZ is a risk too. In fact, he's a potential BIGGER RISK than Ming. Most busts in the draft has not been from lack of talent. It's from injuries, questionable work habits, or drugs. Sure, if we get Curry and the #2 Id be thrilled. Are we going to get that? Hell No. The people who are Anti-Ming are NOT objective. If they were, they'd realize that the Bulls are not going to give up Curry or Chandler to trade down 1 spot. Think it through. What happens when Lamar Odom wants the max contract and he does not mature. You think people trash Cato. Youve seen nothing yet if we get Lamar Odom and he refuses to grow up. As far as Nene Hilario. The biggest Anti-Ming argument is that he's a project that will take years. People compare Hilario to ben Wallace. Wallace took 5 years before he became a force in the league. So Nene Hilario is going to step in and give us 10 rebounds per game in his first 2-3 years? Yeah right.
What? I made a small comment on Pippen. That was by no means even close to the reason I don't want Odom. I think stated the other reasons quite nicely. We would probably still want Steve handling the ball most of the time, Lamar will not help our already terrible outside shooting, the many amount of turnovers the Rockets already make can only get worse, and Lamar will not help our terrible defense. Those, in addition to the offcourt issues, are the reasons I don't want him. The Pippen comment was just a reference to the whole stupid notion of "point forward," and the lack of proof that it's ever really worked. I just hope some of you who want Odom so bad aren't the same ones who complain about the Rockets dribbling too much, because you haven't seen nothing yet. Now we'd be adding a small forward who loves to handle the ball more than anything else! That makes 3 little dribblers and one big dribbler. Yippee!
Nike- Very impressive. You found an exception. How well did that fast break work during the finals? How did Kidd's fast break work in Phoenix? Don't fool yourself into thinking that Francis is better in the wing. If we had legitimate rebounders we would be able to run more frequently. It is easier to run a 2 on 1 fast break than running a 3 on 2 fast break. If we had a center that Francis could depend on to rebound, I assure you that Francis' first move after every shot would be to leak out. Don't underestimate the importance of a head start Don't make it an Odom vs Ming "thing". Ya right. The meat of this proposed deal is Odom not the draft picks. Therefore, it is a Ming vs Odom "thing". DCkid- That is exactly what I meant. Right now the center position consists of Shaq and everyone else. Maybe in a few years people will be saying Shaq, Ming and everyone else.
I am starting to like this place less and less.......Look, we all want the same thing, we just have very different views of how to go about getting it (the rings baby!). I am going to explain my point of view one last time and hopefully I will atleast not be misunderstood. First, I realize that Hilario is not a savior who will come in at 19 and dominate the NBA. What I do know is that he is quite possibly the most athletic big man coming out and he stnds 6'10'' with arms that go on for miles (well actually 7'4''). To go along with that body and those long arms he weighs in at 260 (at 19!!!!) and he has a 35'' vertical leap. The guy is basically a freak. His footwork has impressed everybody that has looked at him, which is virtually every team in the lottery. Second, we have the pieces in place for a championship team. We have a young, explosive backcourt with two potential allstars and a 7' tall 4 who can score from the 3 pt line in. We should be looking to compliment what we have not neccesarily add to it. If we go with Ming then we are not a whole lot better than we were at the end of last season, since I am sorry Ming will not be the 2nd best center in the L for a couple of years. Odom and Hilario would not be here to carry this team but rather as side kicks to Steve, EG, and Cat. Third, I agree with Cuttino and Steve (both current players who many of you have sold out in favor of a guy we have never seen play) that we should look to win ASAP. We are moving into a new arena, the Texans are the darlings of H-Town, we haven't been to the real season in awhile, we need to get these guys some playoff experience, all are reasons that we need to stop rebuilding and start winning. It is my opinion that Yao Ming will not be a threat in the post for atleast 2 years (and that is if we can get him in Houston during the offseason). The guy just doesn't have the body right now hold up in the post to any NBA player. I dont care that he is 300 lbs, he is also 7'5'' and that is skinny for an NBA center. So if all that you all are expecting is Ming running the high post then you wont be let down. If you guys think that Ming is going to dominate like Shaq or Hakeem, then y'all have a wait coming if he indeed does ever become a player like that. I am not saying that Hilario will ever be that either though. I am saying that Hilario as just an athlete has lots of potential and will atleast develop into a solid contributor on defense and with the help of Larry Smith could become an adequate offensive player. What this all boils down to is this: Lamar Odom wants to play here and the guys that we have lived and died with want to play with him here in Houston. I cant see the future, but who is to say that this past season hasnt been cathardic for Lamar prompting him to turn his life around? When he plays to his ability (which was hard for any Clip prior to this year) he is every bit the prospect that Butler or Dunleavy because of his versatility at 6'10''. Add to that a #8 pick (and I was under the impression the #12 was also involved which could satisfy our Grizzly obligation) in a draft that is atleast 13 deep with quality players (ie Hilario, Stoudemire, Jeffries, and others) and I think that you have to conclude that the offer is fair for Ming (or actually Williams). For the price of a BIG gamble we get two smaller gambles that could pay off just as big. With all the questions that are being raised everywhere about Ming I worry that there has to be somethig to them (hopefully I am wrong since Rudy seems set on him though).
The more I think about it, the more I think getting Odom would be the worse thing that we can do. I think he would definitely get us to the playoffs but that is it. We will be like the Sonics, Phoenix, and Minnesota. The problem with getting to the playoffs and losing is that you get terrible draft choices and never get a chance to improve. That and once Francis gets his max contract, we will have no money to get any quality players in here so we won't be able to solve our problems through free agency either. We would be stuck forever mediocrity until we suck bad enough again and get a good draft choice.
UT- We understand your view. You explained it thoroughly. However, I don't agree with your premise. The goal is championships. I could care less about making the playoffs next year. I believe with Ming, we have a better chance of winning championships. I can wait and the Rockets executives should be able to wait. I won't argue with you regarding your view that the team will be better next year with Odom even though I do not agree. That point is valid. However, you have to agree that if (and that is a big if) Ming is what we hope he is, the Rockets will be much better than if Odom pans out. It is all about risk versus rewards. the risk is Ming and the reward is Championships.
West delivered the exact same message that I'm trying to. You can't consider someone a center because they are tall. What makes someone a position is there style of play. Kevin Garnett may be 7'1" but not too many people classify him a center, let alone a power forward. Yao's 7'6" but he doesn't have the physical style of play that makes somebody a center. Yao's more of a drifter, not a banger(ie he would rather shoot an 8 footer than fight for a rebound and dunk). Also, out of the possible trades that we could do, the Bulls trade is most intriguing. Eddy Curry has the aforementioned physical style that the center position demands and could really be a force if he can straighten his life out. Also, we would pick up one of the most immediately effective players with the #2 pick(Butler or Dunleavy). If that trade's really on the table, I think we should look at it under any circumstances.
I understand you do not believe Yao Ming is the answer to our problem in the paint. But what makes you think he is a 'chump'?
Okay, I shouldn't have referred to Ming as a chump, but I am getting so tired of how hyped this kid is becoming on this board. I have heard Ming declared to be as good as the Dream (God rest his soul), that Ming is the 2nd best 5 in the L already, that he'll run away with ROY, that he'll change the game of bball, etc, etc. The kid has not played a game in the L. Many on these boards make these bold statements off of the 5 minutes on sportscenter and nbadraft.net hype. It is so frustrating trying to figure out why our team feels it must gamble with THE future of the franchise. I hope that I can find all of these threads once Ming has come over if he is not successful. I wonder how many of you will biatch and moan over how Rudy passed so and so over and took Ming.
GIVE IT UP !!! REALLY, this is getting old! The deal is as good as done. Ming WILL BE a Rocket come draft day. Sit back and enjoy, there's nothing anyone can do about it.....
I would have to disagree with you on this. I've seen Yao play and he basically dunk all over his opponents, even when he get double or triple-teamed. Although his opponents are not of NBA calibre, they are no shorty either, with height usually around 6-10 to 7-0. Have you seen him play against some international centers? They all thought he can be pushed around due to his smaller upper body frame, but instead, their centers were the one getting pushed around, and had no answers to him once he is close to the ring. Of course this does not guarantee him to have immediate impact in the NBA as Yao will still need to adapt to the more physical style of play, but just don't expect him to still hover around the outside two or three years into his career. -G'day-
